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10 March 2020
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The screen width seems less than 76mm which is yielded by the resolution against the diagonal. Diagonal checks out to be 6.89 inches. For the very high screen to body ratio, overall width (76.1mm) should be almost the screen width. However screen width feels more like 73mm or so due to the curved ends (actual flat portion of the screen width is less than 76) Any comments/contrary observations? thanks

    • D
    • AnonD-909757
    • 0JM
    • 15 Mar 2020

    Anonymous, 13 Mar 2020But there is the problem, when your system can't do anythin... moreExcept that the virus will first need permission to do anything that allow it to spy :D
    Anyway that's just an exemple which work while surprisingly being on the opposite of the real solution, the real computer of the future will have an AI who handle basically everything and monitor what softwares do, with the ability to simulate the software actions to make sure it don't do anything unwanted (which will be way better than just generic unwanted action detection or signature), the user won't directly change settings, he will rather ask the AI what he want and the AI will adjust things to make it happen, which is why better as even advanced user can't predict how many settings and software might collide with each another and someone may change a critical setting to do something simple while a workaround would be available.
    Doing this, the AI will have full control over the machine, meaning no one can hack it, as the AI can simply ignore any software or network action that are unwanted or unnecessary.
    For the audio link, you simply overthink it, the goal isn't about making a secondary network, but only about exchanging basic informations without any way to actually use the network to infiltrate the computer.
    SQL Injections work because SQL is a console command interface which can do many things, what I talk about is way simple than that, as I said, it could be a great way to secure smart house, but you don't need extreme data to do it, which also answer the second point, it would be more an equivalent of the voice command (nothing to do with use of audio port) on Google or Siri or Cortana for example in term of what it can transmit, we are far from complex network request handling.
    Imagine you ask to your smart house :
    "Keyword", what is the weather today ?
    Your computer which host local voice recognition will simply request through the audio link, using a really simple text based command, "weather, today, here" and the computer on the internet part of the link will gather those data online, then simply write down the data as something like :
    0 (morning), 8 (cloud level, here cloudy), 12 (temperature, here 12°c), 3 (wind speed, here it is low), 210 (wind direction, here SSW), 4 (humidity, here 40%);
    1 (noon), 3 (clear), 18, 4 (a bit windy), 230, 3; and so one for afternoon, evening and night.
    Your smart house voice assistant will be able to tell (or display) proper informations with that, they, except some additional one (rain, snow, flood or wind alert and other) it already cover everything about weather.
    But appart from weather, the system won't really need to access a lot on internet, and based on how simple it is, where any other data than those it should receive are simply ignored, and since no complex commands are available, you can't exploit it, and being a one way only network you can't just access it.
    You can still transfert commands like "open shades, turn off light, turn AC on" or receive updates on temperature, or movement detector/alarm alert etc, which don't compromise the whole system as only those data which aren't command are passed through, no one can use it to listen to what you say for example.
    You could use it to have a tchat from two computer, or simply monitor how a computer with sensitive stuff in it is working (temperature, CPU usage etc) without any risk of any other data to leak, as the software you code only handle that and either ignore or crash on improper data.

    Well it depend, the polarisation version don't depend on the reflectors to move, you can also put two of the optical stabilisation 3 or 4 axis here, meaning that you'll anyway get it corrected easily, or simply have the image that hit the sensor being actually both front and back and switch to only one of the two by changing which side of the sensor is active...
    The reflectors could have 2 position and simply latch themselves on a fixed one, or simply a reflector with on the left the front 90° and on the right the back 90° then it simply get translated left or right without having any rotation...
    An even better one would be if rather than a 90° angle, the reflector simply had a rounded bump on both side and the corrective lenses that goes with it, meaning that even with angles imperfection you won't notice any issues. There is lots of ways to compensate for any angle issues.
    Well, this would be a quite different system, it just require to be marketed correctly so the stigmata of the pop up don't follow up, and TADAAA everyone is oblivious to that, to good extend as it is totally different anyway.
    Some of my variants of this idea only have 1 moving part which is the part of the display that goes away and it don't even have big friction efforts because it use electromagnets the same way optical stabilisation does, the version where the part of the display turn 180° and the sensors are simply attached to its back so they get from back to front view also have a single moving part.

    Well sadly improved tech do cost more, well technically lithography don't cost anything other than the energy, raw materials and the equipment cost as regardless what you print it don't really change much, but the RnD that come with it is the costly part.
    Plus, smartphone don't just get faster, they are loaded with even more and more stuff.
    I find a good article who talk about it :
    It also talk about the mid range market, so yeah there is real cost increase in the production, but this is also totally true that there is a totally artificial inflation that goes with it, and I also hate it !
    It's hard to predict what happen, mostly now with the COVID-19 who have a really deep effect on everything, but maybe we will be lucky and a brand will decide to focus on the number of sales to make profits rather than the price per unit and they will produce a real low cost flagship killer like in 2017/2018, if it work well and tons of peoples buy it because it is a nice phone for low price, well other could be tempted to go back to the high attractiveness and reasonable price strategy.

      • ?
      • Anonymous
      • 3d0
      • 13 Mar 2020

      AnonD-909757, 13 Mar 2020I'd still prefer the pop up, I know they will get way bette... moreBut there is the problem, when your system can't do anything except if the user agrees. And there we have good old stealth-virus being useful for getting users to grand permissions to spy on them...
      You have multiple issues with your audio signal link. The first thing is that you can never make sure that you are getting just text and nothing else. Take SQL-Injection for example. The whole attack is based around having a text box which normally just allows text to be put into, but users can use that to trick the system and get access to it.
      The second thing is that you can't use your system at all, because you would have to rewrite all of the protocolls that are being used under the hood. You can't just simply make a request and immediately get the answer as plain text. There is so much communication going on on all of the three protocol-sublayers that you can't just get text through. You would require the second computer to do all the communication with the internet and send the finished requests back to the audio-linked one, but this would make you doing everything with your second computer anyway so you could just leave the audio-connected one out. Because that way you aren't getting rid of all the suspicious things that are being sent, you just shift them to the computer that is connected to the internet.

      It is pretty hard to imagine but I sort of understand what you are trying to say. I think it would be a cool idea but I can't see this lifting of. There would be so much redesigning to do that it would just not be worth it. And this mechanism would be so angle sensitive, because if your mirror is just slightly offset it would be a remarkable change of the frame that is being captured. Even if this is no problem, I think no company would be that stupid to try something like this out, because the customers these days are considering the pop up being way too fragile because of the moving parts and your idea has a lot more of them. Although your idea might not have wear at all, the fact that it has moving parts and that these are considered being breakable is way to dangerous to really implement.

      And the great thing with AMD and Intel is that AMD really changed the market and was able to push the price of processors way more down.
      But just because the hardware is getting faster it doesn't mean that it is becoming more expensive but that is a huge missunderstanding these days. That's why this artificial inflation works, because people tend to think like that. But the machines and ways to build phones are getting better and cheaper as well. The manufacturing cost just stays at around 400 to 450 dollars for most flagships and it is like that for years now. Just because we can manifacture 5nm chips nowadays doesn't mean that they cost 5 times the price of 25nm chips from 8 years ago.
      But yeah, I think it would be a shame if all chinese companies would do that type of marketing, starting with very cheap and great value phones and getting more expensive over the generations. But I think it will become a trend because chinese companies are starting to realize how much money they can make by shipping globally and after some time they all will be as expensive as the rest of the flagships are. They just need a big enough market and nobody cares about a slight price increase of about 50 dollars each year. Everyone is just comparing the flagships with the previous generation ones and nobody really notices the huge steps they are rising their prices over multiple generations. It's really sad but I think this is where we're heading.

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        • AnonD-909757
        • 3g5
        • 13 Mar 2020

        Anonymous, 13 Mar 2020I never thought about that so intense xD But it makes sens... moreIt is 36% for two hands, the one hand high is probably not that common among the one hand holders.
        But yeah I didn't thought about it too before writing this comment, I wonder how many other things we all do our own way without realizing there are many other way peoples do it...

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          • AnonD-909757
          • 3g5
          • 13 Mar 2020

          Anonymous, 13 Mar 2020Yes and that is basically what I think will happen to under... moreI'd still prefer the pop up, I know they will get way better, but the raw degradation will still be present and there are some limitation, like no floodlight otherwise you are lighting up the whole display from the inside, making camera blind (or having to see through a glare), and for 3D facial recognition sensors the raw quality is all that matter.
          Plus there is no way to make sure any privacy screen won't be actually used against us by only partially clearing them in a way we can't notice it.
          Well, technically, this is true, but only with how the current industry make things, we could make an OS that clearly differentiate user (physical peripherals, even emulated ones being not considered as such) from any software/network actions and limit critical access to user only, doing it, only someone with a physical keyboard and mouse will be able to access some things except if the user agree.
          There are indirect way to connect a computer to a network if we are willing to go through the hassle of doing it, for example, we could encode informations about a monitor as an audio signal, output it through the headphone jack and in another computer receive it in the mic jack with the software now outputting the image from the encoded sound signal, effectively creating a unbreakable 1 way link.
          We could actually create 2 one way link and only allow certain type of data to be read/sent, meaning, whatever the guy on the other hand try, if the goal is to transfert pure text, he won't be able to do anything else, simply because the software handling the sound to text computation will simply ignore everything else, this way you have a computer that can actually execute text based macro commands (even complex ones) while being linked to a computer who have an internet access, but no one will be able to do anything other than printing text on this other computer (and make it do the macro commands already programmed, obviously you better not put any macro that give access to critical stuff like opening CMD or changing settings etc), with a simple character limit per transmission, you effectively make an unhackable computer who still have a sort of network.
          That's how, if one day I make a smart house, I'll link my smart house system to internet without having any risk of private things to leak, because only text internet research result, weather result and other little things like that would be transferred from the computer with internet access to the one who control the smart house.
          But current OS who have too many open access from the network or any software without differentiation to critical stuff, obviously can't be secured,k that's on their core code to have those opened doors.

          Why is it a temporary fix, the idea is to get fullscreen, punch hole and notch both remove a part of the display, while pop up effectively give fullscreen, so in the goal of archiving fullscreen, they perfectly reached the goal, and there is even advantage of how they work.
          Not really, because not only the pop up will sit just against the regular periscope, the pop up only contain one lens to compensate for the new additional length and a single reflector in height + a lens in front that will be the "objective".
          All camera will be aligned on the top of the phone like the Galaxy S10 (but even closer to the top, really close to the pop up unit itself), the periscopes will all look up with their 90° reflectors making them looking at the back, but the pop up could either move those on the side and have its own 90° reflector or another variant would slide all those 90° reflectors inside the pop up while rotating them and moving one lens to compensate for the distance.
          But that's a modification of an idea I got to actually replace the pop up with something even better.
          Imagine all periscopes looking up, then there is a 90° reflector/prism making them look at the back, then you do anything that turn on the front camera/sensors, what happen is the 90° reflector flip 180° to move the camera view toward the display, then a part of the display, all its width but only the equivalent of a iPhone X' notch weight, so a thin band at the top of the display, who actually move out of the way to reveal the 90° reflectors/prisms now facing on the front.
          The part of the display could either rotate or slide out under the rest of the display (so it will first get back in the phone then slide down under the rest of the display) using magnetic rails and electromagnet+magnets combo to have virtually no wear, it would be really quick and keep in mind that I talk only about the display itself, the tactile and protective glass will still be here, so the smartphone can still be IP68 rated.
          The display could simply have the 90° reflectors/prisms on its back and simply rotate so another 90° aspect now orient the sensors in the front.
          For non mobile reflectors/prisms we could use a two way reflector where both a front and back facing are present at once, but using polarisation, blocking either one or the other.

          Yeah, that's a shame, a little like Intel did before AMD force them to wake up and get back into serious business, they artificially inflate the price, though modern smartphone cost probably more because of the better and more expensive equipment, but also all the new things that are now the new norm, I am too pretty sure it cost way less than their selling price, they probably make huge margin on them.
          I too hope China will change things, but I think that's one of the reason why Trump caused all this mess with Huawei, yes they did spy, but USA did too, I am sure the real reason is to keep market dominance rather than really prevent spying...
          And many Chinese brand sadly get from flagship killer (like OnePlus) to flagship price...

          I personally want both, I prefer 3D Face Unlock over ultrasonic FPS, but I really want both even with an extra price tag for the added sensors, that's down to each one's preference anyway.

            • ?
            • Anonymous
            • 3dn
            • 13 Mar 2020

            AnonD-909757, 12 Mar 2020Comment 2 of 2 (sorry the first one because of the image li... moreYes and that is basically what I think will happen to under display cameras as well. Their degradation will become that low that you won't even notice anything. Shurely it will take some time but as you said, the first optical underdisplay fingerprint readers were slow af and also way more insecure than capacitive ones.
            We will see, I think we both know that there is no 100 percent secure system. But I think if google wanted to make their system more secure they sure could. I mean the permission system was a huge step up to more security on Android. We will see what there is about to come.

            As I said, I think pop up cameras are a temporary fix, but quite a good one.
            Wouldn't your solution use more space than normal pop up cameras? You would need a mirror inside the pop up so the space for the camera modules is taken by a mirror and becaue of that the sensors would need to reach deeper into the smartphone, potentially affecting the battery as well.

            Yes, I would be willing to pay a higher price for smartphones that are worth it, too. But that is just not the case at all. The reason flagship phones got so expensive is because customers think smartphones are way more worth than they really are and buy them. A few years ago the highest flagships were priced well under the thousand dollar mark because the companies priced way more realistic, except for apple. And I think that is why China phones are getting so much hype these days, because a lot of them are pricing their phones as huge companies like Samsung used to do but don't anymore. The manufacturing costs of smartphones are exactly the same as back in the days, but customers just allow these companies to price their flagship phones way too high these days. That's why I am so exited about the chinese market expanding globally.

            Nothing to add to that whole udfps dialog except 3D face sensor technology is a waste of money when you can have ultrasonic fps :D

              • ?
              • Anonymous
              • 3dn
              • 13 Mar 2020

              AnonD-909757, 12 Mar 2020Comment 1 of 2 : It all come down to how I hold my phone, ... moreI never thought about that so intense xD
              But it makes sense I guess.
              I can't imagine though that these stats are right. I mean I do not know anyone who holds his smartphone like that and I can't picture it being comfortable to use the phone one handed while holding it in it's upper half. But it's supposed to be 36 percent? Whatever. It's probably personal preverence and one can't change the way another holds his phone.
              But for me it is way more convenient to just hold the phone the "one-hand low" way because you don't have to switch back and forth with your holding style just because you can't reach everything.

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                • AnonD-909757
                • 3g5
                • 12 Mar 2020

                Anonymous, 12 Mar 2020First of all: What? I've never heard that before. If it is ... moreComment 2 of 2 (sorry the first one because of the image links is held until a moderator check it) :

                True, I didn't mean that the camera is made to fight against air degradation, it was just an exemple of how even something we consider invisible still degrade image quality.
                Well yes, privacy in any device that connect to internet are bad in general.
                But this doesn't mean we should lets other doors opens, mainly the camera which along the microphone (that we can't really secure in any convenient way) are the two biggest intimate type of privacy invading things.
                There is a big difference between a a collection of selfie being drunk and acting stupid on a party (which for many is the most damaging/compromising type of picture of them on their phone) and a camera that can take picture of you naked, on the throne or in the shower for example, even in a quite normal situation, this is totally different between a picture you take yourself and don't intend to show over a picture that have been stolen from you without you ever knowing about it.
                And yes, the permissions are a big issue, they should limit more precisely, access to storage should be limitable to some type/locations, like its own folder or a specific one, or even accessing only through user action (like an app who can use a picture as an icon so you can identify something) where it shouldn't access anything else that this particular picture.
                I really hope Android 11 will pave the way for really more secure things, but knowing the reputation of Google at life invading, I don't have high hopes anyway.

                It is not about pop up being better, but more about them not being a "fix", they are not a "fix" to the fulldisplay solution, they are a quite nice final solution IMO, and yes some are quite poorly implemented, the idea of reusing camera on the back is nice, but not on the Zenphone 6 way, same for the Samsung Galaxy A80, I saw both, though I only saw the A80 in action, and while my girlfriend and I both like pop up (though the notch isn't an issue for her) she really disliked how the A80 pop up worked.
                I think the solution of the future could be periscope camera where when the pop up lift, the 90° reflector get out of the way and simply inside the pop up, a front oriented 90° reflector and the lens needed to fix the distance would be the real solution !
                Think about it, the pop up would have literally no sensors, even the 3D and IR (and possibly other) sensors would simply be inside the phone and only use the pop up as a mirror, it would be lighter and no electric connection needed, simple magnets to hold it in place and electromagnets to move it "electrical relay" style, it would be quite robust mounted on two (or 4) small rails, really really fast, and yet not hurting/damaging kind of fast, mainly with simple springs to dampen it, it would take the minimum amount of space, even with a large battery of sensors, and it would allow for 100% isolated compartments, meaning totally IP68+ compatible, the WORSE that could happen would be if some dust (that have quite low chance to get in there actually) paved its way in and got on the lenses, and even there it only mean one of the front sensor will get lower quality !

                I perfectly understand that you don't want expensive phone, and when the price is inflated well above the production cost I also hate it, that's only when the phone itself is actually worth a lot that I think it is right that it is expensive, and I am willing to pay for such expensive device if it contain components and feature that are worth it !
                Personally I really want those two (which are the two only I want to use) secure methods, and I hate when the phone ask to "draw pattern to reinforce security", I hope secure unlock method will get rid of this thing which is actually really insecure.
                Not surprising, their Face ID appeared when they went fulldisplay starting with the X and staying with the 11, and they were not about underdisplay FPS at this time, the world first UDFPS on a production device was in the Vivo X20 Plus UD released in January 2018 while Apple twitch to Face ID was in iPhone X released on November 2017, so their fulldisplay wish were anterior, and even there a lot of peoples were at first against UDFPS because of their lower reliability and back then the long time they took to unlock.
                But all the notch criticism (probably from Android, because the iPhone one as I said is actually quite nice) meant they probably want to get in a notchless design, meaning they have no choices but removing all front sensors but the minimum, so they may deliver an iPhone with a tiny camera in the border or on the smallest possible bezel, or an underdisplay camera, but I guess if this is UD it meant they couldn't also implement FaceID sensors successfully under the display.
                But this is only because they (according to the rumors) will put an ultrasonic type of underdisplay fingerprint reader which is massively more secured than the optical one (and even than the capacitive one), meaning their switch from Face ID (considered one of the most secure unlocking method on portable device) will get a replacement at least as secure, and I think all that matter to them is to have THE most secure label, meaning they don't care about ditching one if favor for the other and don't really care which one their use prefer/want.
                I still personally believe that even on a little known website, saying how we hate/like features make things evolves, even if don't directly touch the manufacturer at first, it will still have the potential to influence potential customers, themselves by buying a particular type over another, influence the market.
                And it is not about the price, but about the features, some smartphone could for example be really not into photography and while keeping a low price tag, having other features that normally are only on flagships, including two highly secure authentification methods.
                That's all about variety and availability of different combinaisons than what specific price range model are.
                But yeah I get that you prefer having only one, and personally I'd easily take a smartphone with the 3D Sonic Max and no front facing camera at all, over one with optical UDFPS and face recognition based on a single camera !
                But I'd take one with both 3D Sonic Max and 3D facial recognition over cheaper alternative, except if it have really poor other features, bad quality, way too overpriced or stuff like that, I obviously have limits too on how bad I want this combo !

                  • D
                  • AnonD-909757
                  • 3g5
                  • 12 Mar 2020

                  Anonymous, 12 Mar 2020First of all: What? I've never heard that before. If it is ... moreComment 1 of 2 :
                  It all come down to how I hold my phone, not everyone hold their phone the same way, this image perfectly illustrate it :
                  Passively I would be the "One-hand, High" type.
                  But even this have two really different variant (there are more, but in term of thumb reach we can count two category), there are peoples who just lets the phone rest on their fingers like this :
                  Doing so the thumb can reach the entire display and a worse variant which kill the pinkie which is to use it to prevent the phone from falling :
                  Which can cause permanent finger bending with regular use.
                  And then there are those like we who actually hold it with fingers holding the phone on the opposite side of the thumb like this :
                  And while the thumb have a limited reach with this type of holding, the phone is well secure, it would feel so prone to fell for me to use the first way, the idea it is well firmly secured in my hand prevail over having the thumb covering the while display.
                  (Note that for consistency and avoiding phone size difference, all the above link show a Galaxy S10, but I didn't check which variant for each pics).
                  Meaning literally, from where I hold my phone (OnePlus 6t), the lower my right thumb can go is literally over the fingerprint scanner, though it isn't pleasant to get it that far down, the rest of the time.
                  When I need to navigate or reach elements out of my thumb reach, I naturally revert to "Held, Finger" type, I can't tell how exactly I do the transition because I don't think about doing it, but I think I go through the "Cradled" one, which I think I use when I have few things to click.
                  Anyway when unlocking my phone or just quickly looking at it, my right thumb don't naturally want to go over the fingerprint scanner, but it naturally is on the power button, making the face unlock experience really pleasant !
                  I would need to film myself using my phone to give you more details, because, as I said, I don't really know, that's like keyboard typing, when it is natural and we don't really realize all the hand gesture we do.
                  And you can just one hand twist your wrist to rotate your phone, it is just a quick gesture, for both "One-hand" type of phone holding, turning over your phone will naturally make it on landscape orientation with back camera perfectly facing you, of course flipping it while keeping it vertical isn't natural or pleasant, but the simple twist from front facing you in portrait to back facing you in landscape is as seamingless as looking at your watch, even more actually as only your wrist move, not your entire arm need to get in front of you.
                  It all came down to the same thing, as explained in the video, even if the windows closing button is actually quite far because it is on the corner while you most certainly work on the center of the display, because of the borders it feel easier to reach than an element closer to the mouse, and time perception or more exactly how we feel things take too long or not depend on a lot of things, including the actions you have to do, its like you play a game and you get an horse or any other faster travelling thing for the first time, the first trip you do to a new place, horse or not, will always feel longer than the rest because your brain discover a lot of new things, following trips will feel not as long but the time may feel less pleasant, same with the horse, at first it feel so fast, then you get accustom and it almost feel too slow...
                  If you were to go with your freshly acquired horse to a new town, it will feel like you have been traveling for a while one were to ask you how much time have passed, but from a boredom point of view the time it took wasn't displeasing.
                  After doing the same trip multiples times, the horse will feel slower if you watch it run, paradoxally it will also feel felt like less time compared than the first trip have passed if someone were to ask you in how many time you did it, but this time that appeared shorter also appeared less pleasing.
                  That's all complicated psychology between being accustom and perfection of time, and even doing the first travel on foots then the others on horse, the first one, while feeling like it took long didn't felt unpleasant, but the other that afterward felt faster also appeared less pleasant.
                  So something that take more time can appear more pleasant than the opposite depending on what you do.
                  So holding the phone that way, it actually feel better to just revert to "Held, Finger" and use the index for the fingerprint scanner, many peoples actually do that.
                  It is easy to forget that many peoples don't hold their phone the same way, even this picture that wasn't about showing that (I found it on an article about how often we (should?) restart our phone) give a good demonstration as how even the same time of hand position actually have many variations :
                  Even a google image search of "holding smartphone" show a lot of way peoples hold their own :
                  That how I hold mine :
                  BTW the way I hold where my fingers other than my thumb touch the other side of the display are the worse case scenario for curved edge display, that's also what many peoples don't realize about them, they think, because they hold their phone it a way that don't make them touch the edge that it mean the rejection work seamlessly for everyone, but it actually is a true hell for many users, and once you are accustom to hold a phone in a certain way, you can't just change it that easily.
                  My first Smartphone was a Samsung Wave, which is so small we can easily do the grab type of held and still cover the whole display with the thumb, which may be why I got used to hold my phone like that as it was quite natural and logic with such a small smartphone.
                  My second Smarphone was a Acer Liquid E700 Trio, it was consider really big back then, but for today standard it is actually normal sized, maybe even on the small side, so I didn't really change how I held my phone, then I got a smaller Sony Xperia XA (same display size but smaller phone) before my OnePlus 6t.

                    • ?
                    • Anonymous
                    • 3dn
                    • 12 Mar 2020

                    AnonD-909757, 12 Mar 2020TBH any chances, as small as it could be to improve the ind... moreFirst of all: What? I've never heard that before. If it is unnatural for you to reach the lower middle of your phone, how are you even navigating it? I really want to know that because the navigation buttons are even lower than the fingerprint sensor, regardless whether you use buttons or gestures, so it must be worse for you to use these as well. Also where's the difference of clicking the spot where your fingerprint reader sits to unlock your phone or starting an app that happens to sit just there? For my understanding it is way more convenient to just unlock the phone with my right thumb than using the right index finger because I can hold the phone one-handed. And if I had to chose between using both hands to rotate the device to use face unlock or only using my right hand and therefor clicking the lower middle of the screen it would be an easy choise for me.
                    Isn't Fitts's law more about finding UI elements more easily than perceive time differently? I thought Fitts's law tells you to have a more intuitive feeling UI, not to not waste brain time. But it's whatever. I think because almost all users are unlocking their phones by using the right thumb it just would not be handy to suddenly force all of the smartphone users into using their left hand for turning as well.

                    Well yeah, I know that technically there is degradation in the athmosphere. But the purpose of a camera is to capture the real world we see with the best details posiible and as close to what we see as possible. So at least for me I don't like cameras that oversaturate the image or anything, at the end of the day we want a camera of a phone to have the same degradation as our eyes do. That's what keeps the image being natural. But you're right in saying that privacy or degradation is not the best strength of under display cameras.
                    But I have to mention a new point here. Privacy isn't that good on Android phones anyway. The images you take are stored locally in a folder where every app with storage permissions can access them. That's also a huge software issue because you only need an app that can justify using storage permission and just like that it can access your pictures you took without you noticing. In that case the fact that you have a pop up camera can't prevent such apps from getting images of you if you really used the front camera.
                    But this problem is about to be solved with Android 11, which still has yet to come with a fix for that because this fix is heavily being criticised by developers.

                    Yeah, I never said that I don't think that pop up cameras are better than other solutions. Except I think the "pop up" camera of the Zenfone 6 is one of the few not that good camera implementations.

                    I also don't care that much about the lower end but I think with the chinese market getting more and more involved into the global market, mid range phones are getting better and better. And I also am one of these people that criticize flagship phones that cost more than a thousand dollars because these phones are just not worth that much. That is why I rather want to buy a chinese flagship phone. I just don't see the point of paying more than a thousand dollars just to have a phone that is worth 400 to 500 dollars on the inside anyway. And in order to reach that goal without any major drawbacks I easily am willing to take the compromise of having just one unlock mechanism by having secure fingerprint sensors.
                    This is btw apparently what Apple thinks as well. They didn't put touch id into their face id devices and now Apple is rumored to remove face id this year in exchange to touch id.
                    Yes, I wouldn't mind the price tag either if it was like that, that flagship phones had that really advanced feature but that is just not the case. So in this regard I fully agree with you that flagship phones miss that opportunity to just pack the best tech in there that is currently available like 3D facial recognition. But I also don't mind china flagships to not have those as I said and I personally think you are at the wrong spot with criticizing chinese phones as I said in the very very beginning :D. So yeah, I still think it would be stupid to try to pack both sensors into smartphones under 700 dollars. It is so much better to have a great fingerprint sensor and to not actually have to pay way more just to have that extra 3D module. But that's just me.

                      • D
                      • AnonD-909757
                      • 0JM
                      • 12 Mar 2020

                      Anonymous, 11 Mar 2020But what you described here was a planned community survey ... moreTBH any chances, as small as it could be to improve the industry by making more unique a little more common, just enough to have a chance to get multiples combinaisons of those, is worth it.

                      It is not about being quicker, it is about what feel the least cumbersome, what feel the most natural and the least effort to do, turning it over feel much more fluid than having to move your finger and unlock, btw when using the FPR I hold phone with my left hand and use my right index then switch it to my right hand and navigate with my right thumb or left index.
                      I find it really unnatural to use my right thump to reach the lower middle of the display.
                      I mean, that's a typical lazy thing, often we see peoples spending days to code something to automate a task that finally took few hours, or just few minutes, its not about what is really more faster, it is more about instant gratification and low efforts, while turning your phone it feel like you are actively participating and not waiting while not requiring efforts, but moving the thumb to a precise area is totally different, the time where your thumb move is considered by the brain as a waste of time, I mean that's way more about psychology and UI designation than real timescale.
                      That's literally what Fitts's Law is about :
                      I talked about the three-click rule earlier, but there is a way to cheat it, it is menu that we can navigate through submenu with mouse over without clicking, even if it require a click to open it, this kind of submenu even with many submenu clearly making the user hover over way more than 3 elements feel better for the user than just doing 2 clicks.

                      I don't doubt that underdisplay camera will archive really good quality, but it will never be as good as direct camera, it is not about the number of pixels, it is about seeing through a material, I mean we don't realize that but even the atmosphere itself cause image quality degradation, well at long distance that is, and the protective glass on top of the sensor is as good as we can get in term of having the least degradation as possible, but think about the fact that underdisplay optical fingerprint reader need to shine a bright light to actually being able to see the fingerprint.
                      But you here have a big issue, either the camera see almost perfectly through but you also see it perfectly and the display have a poor quality, or you can't see it and it also can't see you, any middle ground will always deal with a mix of the two.
                      Yes, but the OnePlus tech is expensive, it is used to control the amount of light reaching the camera to control the exposure, but the issue is not about how the camera can be hidden like that, it is about how easy to spot when it will be stealthily activated, no point on making a privacy obscuring glass if you barely notice when it turn off, also most of the spying websites/app don't care about perfect image quality, the data collection, may it be for ads targeting or for spying on a particular person or gathering illegal image to blackmail someone for money or other things, a poor quality image is enough, so it can be taken while the display is still showing an image over the camera, the quality loss will be more than acceptable.

                      But being more fragile while being actually tougher than the rest of the device's critical components AND having multiples advantages + no real disadvantages is the point, they are better in many (all) ways !

                      To be honest I don't really care about low and mid range, I care more about high end device who already cost a lot and often add completely accessory and cosmetic things which cost a lot.
                      You also have to consider that even the 9$ one wouldn't be sold at a loss, and when you take into account manufacturing price + all the sellers it get through until it reach this shop + possible taxes and shipping, well, it is quite cheap, mainly considering that when designing a phone, mass production actually lower the price of the unit, that's the whole point of websites like Alibaba, being able to buy lots of units for lower price than a single one, increasing the overall profits per unit.
                      And I'd pay an extra 100 or 200$ to have both 3D facial recognition and 3D Sonic Max UDFPS, most peoples complain about the actual price of top end devices, in my case I don't because I know that they are not just an upgraded variant of the previous one, they always push the envelop with way more powerful tech which obviously are more expensive.
                      Going from SD835 to 845 to 855 to 865 isn't like going from 2012 to 2015 to 2017 to 2020 variant of a specific car (let say the horrible Prius), it is more like going from a Prius to a Audi S7 to a Lamborghini Avendator to a Koenigsegg Jesko.
                      I accept high price for more premium and advanced features, I just can't accept that at higher price tag and top end device can't add a

                        • ?
                        • Anonymous
                        • 3dn
                        • 11 Mar 2020

                        AnonD-909757, 11 Mar 2020That's true that Chinese company are known to generally cop... moreBut what you described here was a planned community survey and that is something else than a posted comment beneath an article of GSMArena. I still don't think that these comments will be read by anyone who is involved in smartphone design or engineering.

                        Well the Mate Xs is what you described but with a folding display. And also if you want to have sensors on the back like the face unlock then your whole point of face unlock being quicker is not there anymore, because if I had to rotate my device just to unlock it, it would be so much slower than just using the fingerprint sensor.

                        A few years ago no one would have thought that displays will be flexible enough to hake holding screens. Thats why I think under display cameras will get better as well. And I can easily imagine a lower pixel density on top of the camera and I also think that this technique Oneplus showed with the darkening glass will get better and common. And who knows, maybe this darkening glass can be used on the front as well for privacy reasons.

                        I mean I don't think that pop up cameras are way too fragile but as you wrote in that note, they are more fragile than a normal or even an underdisplay camera and I just wanted to prove my point of it being an evolution.

                        Yes it is expensive, at a production cost of around 200 dollars 30 dollars ARE a considerable price and I mean it is mass production so that definetly will increase the price a lot. Especially in mid range it is a difference whether a smartphone costs 250 or 300 dollars. There's a huge competition in mid range and I think if someone really searches for mid range phones they would not pay an extra 50 dollars just for safer face unlock and the companies know that.

                        I don't know what you want to see in your status bar anyways, because all I care about is to see Wifi, Network connection, battery and time. And for these few informations a big notch is no problem as long as I can configure the system to only show me these, everything is fine.
                        And the notification symbols are a joke anyway, because they just bloat up the top of your phone and do not contain any important information. In order to see this you have to swipe down anyway so there's that.

                        What sensors do you want to put into the pop up other than cameras and maybe IR sensor or 3d facial recognition? I also don't think that these sensors (proximity and ambient light) can just be ignored and as far as I know the nex 3 and 3s do have both of them. I think it would be a huge deal to not have these sensors and because of that no engineer will just leave them out.
                        I mean I did not have a punch hole phone or teardrop notch and therefor I can't tell whether or not most phones have these sensors and it's not something reviewers say in their reviews. But as far as I know a lot of bezelless and teardrop phones do have them.

                        I wouldn't mind that 3d face recognition will get more popular.

                        (Btw switched to phone, that's why I am not me :D)

                          Dont care about the phone and brand but that brown honey color looks awesome.

                            • D
                            • AnonD-909757
                            • 0JM
                            • 11 Mar 2020

                            Anonymous, 10 Mar 2020I don't think that especially Vivo does what their customer... moreThat's true that Chinese company are known to generally copy what work elsewhere, but other do listen, OnePlus is an example, but the best example was a high ranked guy at Redmi (I can't remember who) who made a poll about the K30 Pro, asking if peoples preferred pop up or punch hole, the majority said pop up, and the K30 Pro will certainly feature one.
                            So even if a specific brand don't listen, other do, I am sure some even go through reading what is said about other brand to evolve their design and adapt it to what most customers want.
                            That's why I consider important to fight for the recognition of the features I want and are only rarely used.

                            I still believe that foldable smartphone will branch out of regular smartphone like smartphones and feature phones are two different category today, folding device even in the future will be too unpractical for many peoples.
                            I'd prefer a smartphone with two display where the front one is Oled and the one in the back is LCD (pleasing those who prefer both) where cameras are only on the back so the front is 100% fullscreen without interruption and no privacy issue.
                            If properly done, NFC antenna can be squeezed on the back bellow the display and as for wireless charging, rather than using the induction one, we could make an hybrid capacitive tactile that can receive electricity, which will be better as there will be less heating and way less loss compared to induction one.
                            With a proper protection with the border slightly protruding out and a Gorilla Glass 5 or 6 on both side, it will be quite an interesting phone, mainly with great sensor at the back and great underdisplay fingerprint reader in the front, with a good detection of which side is the user to switch display and do face unlock by simply turning over the phone.
                            Even forgetting wear, I wouldn't want to constantly fold and open the phone, and I can already see a lot of issue with lots of Android apps not properly using it.
                            And well, brain interfaces are for sure not for tomorrow, but I mean, they will be the clear final evolution of any devices, foldable phone won't be the replacement of static smartphones...

                            Underdisplay camera will always have the issue of poor raw quality, reduced number of sensor that can work well through a display and no way to fix the privacy issue.
                            Pop up camera are an end by themselves, as they successfully achieve fulldisplay while fixing the privacy issue, they even safely store sensors when they aren't in use.
                            And pop up camera being fragile is a totally wrong assumption that I fight against, just read that thing I wrote about it debunking by giving real example and explaining how they are actually way more robust than what peoples tell about them :
                            Underdisplay camera can still look through the display when not used, so privacy is still a concern, if anything, because their presence will be actually more easily forgotten, they will be worse for private life as peoples will expose even more themselves in front of them.
                            The reason why the Find X2 ditched the underdisplay camera is because the technology wasn't ready, simply because it is hard to make, and hard to make technology can easily have quite limited room of improvements, but here the real issue is that the raw quality is so bad that they haven't made a software good enough to compensate for it yet.
                            Pop up are superior to underdisplay camera in basically every aspects.
                            And well, guess what pop up does ? It migrate the selfie camera out of space, which both allow 100% fullscreen AND privacy, notch and punch hole allow for none and underdisplay camera only allow for fullscreen.
                            That's why I consider pop up to be a finality and not a transition, they already archive well the objective, and they actually have a lot of room for improvement.

                            The safe version isn't expensive at all, lets take example on the Find X, the spare part for the front camera + IR camera + dot projector module cost so little it is crazy to think it isn't put on other phones :
                            Here at 32$ for the full front sensor assembly :
                            Here at 1750₹ or 24$ original price and now at 520₹ or 7$ :
                            And here at 9$ :
                            It is rare because many peoples bashed it, so rather than adopting it, manufacturers got away from it.
                            Considering that I loose the whole space where the notch is which is display I paid for but can't use without loosing notifications, in this world it is a pain for me and many other users.

                            Large notch being surrounded by status bar sound like a joke considering how little space left there is and how important statut bar is on Android, and well, loosing a part of the display because of a tech that could either being just not put there and simply used a bezel or a pop up camera...Sorry but I can't see how the notch isn't an annoyance and waste of potential.

                            Actually close to half of the flagship with the SD865 being planned or released have this curved display thing, and seeing where thing are headed to, it will become more common...
                            Punch hole still waste precious statut and/or notification bar space, is one of the reasons why other sensors disappear and cause a trend where privacy isn't taken into account at all, so even if the software deal with it (and many people with punch hole complain about apps interfering with it) it still cause issue.
                            Meanwhile the only thing pop up cause issue with is actually to developers that try to stealthily take pictures of the users, the pop up is to thanks for highlighting many website and apps that did that.
                            Even with great and fast fingerprint reader it still is relevant, for example since I first tried the Opera web browser and discovered the mouse gesture, I couldn't stand to use any other options, it feel way more convenient than just clicking on the side previous/next buttons on my mouse, while for someone who clicked on the browser arrow and discover those two buttons they seem like an amazing fluid thing that facilitate the life so much, the same happened to me when I switched from those buttons to the gesture, it feel cumbersome to even use those buttons.
                            As a developer you may be aware of the rule of 3, user should be able to get anywhere on the website/software/application with only 3 clicks, well all that, my gesture addition, the rule of 3 and many other shortcut like that prove that even things that seem meaningless and just help earning 0.1 seconds or save a finger from moving 3mm are actually meaningful, the experience that from a single click to unlock provide feel vastly superior to having to aim at a little circle and wait, even the quarter of a second that it take, to register your fingerprint.
                            Nice on being a Linux power user, I never really got into Linux myself, but for windows base software and usage like multimedia, web browsing and other non mouse critical/required tasks where we could still do everything with the keyboard, it feel painful to have to use only the keyboard, when writing or coding I mostly use the keyboard, but for other things the mouse is a really massive life improving thing.

                            Well yeah but I talk about making the phone a little thicker, not making a brick xD
                            Their phone is just way to big, I mean I could too strap a phone into a car battery and say that I've made the phone with the biggest battery capacity, that's too easy, the next guy will probably strap it onto a Tesla battery, up until someone strap it to a nuclear powerplant...
                            Ok maybe not that much, but still, there is a huge difference between something thick as a smartphone with a case and something as thick as the Energizer one.

                            Well, the futur may be bright because Qualcomm work with Trinamix to bring highly secure 3D facial recognition only through software, Qualcomm also put at disposition a signal processing chip to improve it, so it may become popular hopefully !

                              • ?
                              • Anonymous
                              • 3dn
                              • 10 Mar 2020

                              AnonD-909757, 10 Mar 2020Well actually for multiples reasons when peopleS show they ... moreI don't think that especially Vivo does what their customers say. From what i've seen Vivo doesn't care about their customers at all, at least not about the global community. There are so many features that Vivo holds back from it's customers, the biggest being the locked bootloader. Vivo got so many criticism but to this day the bootloader is still not able to get unlocked. From my experience, big companies especially from China are "just" looking at other tech companies and what they do than listen to their customers.
                              And there also has to be a huge community behind this design, because this is the revised version of the nex 3 which means this particular phone must have sold well.

                              I think you missed my point here. I didn't say that the foldables that are currently available are good or anything. I just said that they are the future and by that I mean that they will evolve. Look at the Mate Xs from Huawei. I think it is an amazing phone, although not as sturdy as normal phones. But it's way better than the first folding phone out there, the Royale Flexpai which I think you agree was just not good. And at some point folding screens will be robust enough to not get damaged after using it like 2 hours (exaggerated). And imagine the Mate Xs with a screen that's just as robust as normal phone screens, it would be amazing and I can easily think of a time, where those sturdy foldables will replace the normal flat phone. Look at the first IPhone, which was the first phone to have a touch display and now look where we are now. Regardless of what you think where the tech industry is now, you probably would not want to go back to this first touch device. And I think this will be the case with folding phones as well.
                              Also you can't tell me that brain interfaces will develop faster than proper foldables.

                              I think you also missed my point here :D
                              Just like above I wasn't glorifying under-display cameras as they are now. I just said they will get better and replace the normal camera. And of course is the Pop up camera a transition from notches and hole punches. Think of it as a search for a place for the camera:
                              First the engineers wanted to use unused space but discovered that this is just not ideal, as you said. Then they tried to make it as small as possible which of course is not the best solution because it blocked things as well. The engineers thought of a solution and tried to get it out of the way by making Pop Up cameras but they were to fragile. Then they thought of a solution for this problem, which is the under-display camera because you only use the space where it lays when you take a picture and even privacy is provided while the camera isn't being used.
                              And Xiaomi is making big steps in this regard. Again, I'm not saying the goal is reached, but this tech will continuously get better.
                              I am actually one of those people, that tape up the camera because I know how easy it is to get access to this piece of tech. And if it were up to me I would just migrate the front camera out of space because I think it is the most useless piece of a smartphone, but that's just me, I know there are a lot of people out there having a completely different opinion.

                              You're actually right about that point, it is a shame that these sensors are being killed because of that.
                              You cannot say that companies remove the 3D face recognition because it is and was rare, almost no phone had it. And because of that, I would just not use the face recognition at all, because the safe version is just too expensive to build into a phone and the unsafe 2D-version is just - well - unsafe.
                              If you have the right system on your Android phone, hole punches or notches are no problem at all. I found Lineage OS handling the notch quite well. But in which world is a phone with notch a pain to use?

                              And yes, I also own a Pocophone F1, which has a rather large notch. And it is by no means a bad thing to program. While writing Android apps you don't even have to care about the notch or punch hole being a problem, because it will be surrounded by the status bar anyway. And for the different resolutions, there is a wonderful thing thats called dpi, what scales your app automatically. But what you mean is probably Game development which indeed has to deal with the notch being in the way. But also not really, because with Unity which most Android devs use for programming their games handles the notch itself, making the status bar black and therefor unusable.

                              I don't think curved displays are common at all. On my search for one with a Snapdragon 865 I only encountered a few phones such as the ZTE Axon 10, the Xiaomi Mi 10 (Pro) and Mi Note 10 and of course most of the Samsung and Huawei flagships which I think are too expensive anyway. And this phone right here of course.
                              And I also don't think a hole punch is a big deal these days, because they are around for a while and the software that comes preloaded on all these phones does a pretty good job in most cases.
                              Yes, you're right, I never had a Oneplus 6T to test the underscreen fingerprint reader, but a lot of cheap phones have great and fast ones these days and I think they are a lot safer. (Also I actually don't use any mice, I am a linux power user :D) But I don't think you can compare face unlock and fingerprint scanner with mouse and keyboard, because it doesn't really matter (unless you have a really bad fingerprint scanner) whether you click the turn on button or the fingerprint area to unlock the phone whereas most pc users can't live without mouse or keyboard, because they both have different tasks.

                              And yes, you're right about that, I too would like to have thicker phones in order to get more battery life out of them, but Energizer tried it and only 16 people wanted to buy it :D
                              But the problem with 3D sensors is not the space they take but as I said the money they cost, at least for now. We will see how everything will turn out in the future.

                                • D
                                • AnonD-909757
                                • 0JM
                                • 10 Mar 2020

                                Anonymous, 10 Mar 2020First off all you can't change the smartphone market by hat... moreWell actually for multiples reasons when peopleS show they like or not a feature, it actually DOES make things changes, from the marketing study campaign who read press articles, poll and user reactions in the comments (it would be stupid to ignore what your customers have to say), but it also influence investors who themselves heavily rely on press articles and user reactions to them, and investors themselves a a big leverage on any company.

                                Folding screen are a stupid thing, for those who want them, fine, lets them get their already existing folding phone, but a LOT of persons actually don't want any folding screen, hell even a lot of peoples already hate pop up because "it have wear" while it actually have a really little wear and even if it fail only a totally optional feature (front camera) is affected, while folding display are actually a big concern, a LOT of peoples want flat display, we want colors, contrast, level of black and many other image related thing to improve, but the shape of the display for MANY peoples (the vast majority) don't need any change !
                                I want to be able to quickly glance at my phone and get all the data I need then from the press of a single button WITHOUT HAVING TO OPEN THE DAMN THING, being able to unlock it, which is the whole point of fingerprint scanner and facial unlock tech in the first place.
                                They are the future ONLY as they will become a new type of device, but they won't replace the flat smartphone, the real future will actually be no display at all using direct human/machine interfaced through brain to project the image in our head, THAT will be the future, folding phone aren't, they already are a relic of the past more than a future thing.
                                Their only advantage is that the length of the smartphone is reduced when folded, which allow for more compact (though quite thick anyway) phone to be deployed into a large display, they will be somewhere between tablet and smartphones, but WON'T replace one or the other, that like saying motocycle will replace bicycles, they evolved into two different things and even if there is bicycles with an electric motor, the bicycle industry will still exist as it is for many decades/centuries to come.

                                Underdisplay camera are full of issues, they make the display more fragile, having visible quality and light loss where the camera is, they have poor RAW quality and rely heavily on AI rendering and other phone post treatment, they will be quite bad at allowing other sensors like those for facial recognition to see through, they can't allow floodlight without a lot of compromises etc etc
                                Pop up camera aren't a transition, they ARE their own final tech, and they allow for something way more valuable than anything the underdisplay camera can give, way more important than any fulldisplay, privacy !
                                Which is an increasingly worrying thing we loose more and more everydays and can lead to extremely serious consequences, from putting someone at risk of data and identity theft up to, when combined, allowing a dictatorship to come into place, privacy isn't a matter of laughing, that's the primary reason why I want a pop up or a secondary display on the back, because I don't want a damn camera to constantly being pointed at my face and linked to a device connected to internet and loaded with third party programs, even on laptops peoples have since a decade now get the reflex to put a tape on it.
                                As I often say, notch on iPhone are actually great because the top of the display is actually only having so much informations, so all the statut bar can be squeezed on the side of the display and every sensors can now be put between those two area, making effective use of the space as apps now run on the whole display under the notch...
                                On Android considering the notification bar is on the top and is one of the most important part of the UI, this is totally stupid to put anything in there, don't tell me "unused space", my OnePlus 6t who have a teardrop notch (one of the smallest form of notch) eat 2 notifications, and even with the Android 10 update that allow to set non important notifications, I still get my notification area full, even after disabling the notch, which by the way make no use of the display space around it when this is done, and between loosing a part of my display and having less notifications, I choose loosing part of the display.
                                If you look at phone like the Meizu 16 and the image of the 17, now THAT is poor space usage as it ONLY have a single camera and speaker on the top bezel, no ambiant light or proximity sensor, no floodlight, a tiny speaker and no additional sensors of any kind, just a LOOOOONG bezel for only a camera, that's what the notch and punch hole caused, removal of every useful thing but the camera, so yeah, so much for use of unused space, because of them bezel become as irrelevant as they ever while they could actually, thanks to their now thin size allowed by modern technology and manufacturing process, simply make use of a thin bezel loaded with useful tech !

                                To what point ?
                                *Loosing all useful sensors ?
                                *Removing 3D facial recognition now that most smartphone start to implement it but use the insecure 2D version because of that ?
                                *Having bunch of applications not compatible with notch and punch hole which eat part of the image or of the app UI ?
                                *Lowering the number of available notifications now that more and more social networks and other app appear ?
                                *Making display that are more fragile and a pain to use ?
                                Yes, they are stupid and pointless BECAUSE they helped getting where we are, which is everything but a good place, a lot of tech know a dark age where they are filled with stupid features, and the smartphone are now in this hell era because of the notch, punch hole and curved edge displays.

                                The issue is that now when developing apps, you need to take into account all those notch and punch holes, their isn't even just ONE, but many variant, from large notch to punch hole possibly on the left, right or center, but also make sure not too many important visual stuff are on the edges as the curved edge display render them unreadable...
                                But you are developing on a phone without those two (if you own the Pixel 4), yet praising them, I hope you accounted for them otherwise a lot of unhappy users may tell you that they can't see anything because you didn't take into account those things...
                                Personally I am happy to be a computer programmer and not a smartphone developer, because dealing with different resolutions is already enough, dealing with many different display format add another level of annoyance, but having to deal with unusable chunks of the display would be rage inducing, I wouldn't stand making a good looking interface and then realize that because of X stupid phone, some peoples won't be able to use my app...

                                It look good for many peoples, though I prefer flat display, I don't prevent anyone to buy what they want, I criticize ONLY trending tech, because they are way too common and prevent other thing from emerging, I don't criticize rare or uncommon tech because as much I as think I deserve to have phone that suite me, other deserve phone that suite them, but that isn't with the whole industry doing the EXACT same design that everyone will have choice.
                                That's why things like notch, punch hole and curved display that are WAY TOO COMMON while being really negative for peoples not wanting them (in opposition of NFC, Jack or wireless charging who don't do much negative things even if you don't like them) should be really welcome to criticize freely, it is actually a need to do so.
                                You obviously never tried on regular basis a OnePlus 6t with poor underdisplay fingerprint scanner and great and fast face unlock, just being able to unlock your phone by looking at it and pressing a single button (it would be even better with no button press needed on phone with a second display on the back where turning it over simply make the facial unlock kick in) is really pleasant and fluid, it would be like saying, you already type with your keyboard anyway, why do you need a mouse on your computer ?
                                Face unlock by itself is one of the most convenient feature of modern smartphone, and the 3D one is THE most secure unlock method, which is why Apple simply got rid of the fingerprint scanner and instead put facial recognition.
                                I was too against facial recognition until I tried it out on my OnePlus, then now, even with a perfectly working fingerprint scanner like the OnePlus 7's one, I would hate to not have it !
                                Those sensors don't take that much space, what waste space is actually trying to make phone ridiculously thin, BTW curved edge consume way more internal volume than those sensors, I am talking order of magnitude more.
                                And if rather than making extremly thin smartphone with a camera bump, the phone was as thick as the phone + camera bump, we would have 7000mAh battery as today and better heat management, meaning even faster quick charging tech...
                                Plus, as you said, it is a matter of preference, and me, like many other peoples, do want 3D secured facial recognition, and considering it doesn't do any arm to user who don't want them, why shouldn't it be at least as popular as curved edge, punch hole and notches ?

                                  Anonymous, 10 Mar 2020waterfall XD people still falling into easy marketings, wha... moreHa yes!

                                    • ?
                                    • Anonymous
                                    • 3dn
                                    • 10 Mar 2020

                                    AnonD-909757, 10 Mar 2020What I want ? Simple : Pop up camera, second display on th... moreFirst off all you can't change the smartphone market by hating against notch or hole punch phones. So why would you do that?

                                    The second thing for me is that all of these trends are there to change something or if you want to say so to evolve the technology behind displays in general.
                                    If you take a look at the curved edges, they were the first milestone on the road to folding screens and although we are no where near the end of that development curved screens helped getting there. And like it or not but I believe folding phones are the future.

                                    Same thing with notch and punch hole. They both were just a first step in having under display cameras and sensors. The next milestone in that development after the notch was pop up cameras because the companies tried to use even more space.
                                    But besides that, I think it's stupid to say that notches removed parts of the screen, because they were a first attempt to use the unused spaces next to the sensors.

                                    All in all I think the technology you think is stupid or pointless helped to get to this point where we are now.

                                    You also said some things about the google pixel phones where I totally agree with you, Pixel phones do have stupid designs, software, e.g. I also own one though. The reason for that is that I am developing android apps and therefor Pixel phones are amazing.

                                    What I want to say with that is that the smartphone is as good as the people buying it think. If someone likes the design of curved edges because it looks good, then this should be totally ok. One doesn't have the same taste as a second and that's great.
                                    In fact, I think 3D face unlock is useless. It just takes up too much space and doesn't do enough. In my opinion it is just marketing to get customers to buy the specific product, because you are using the touchscreen anyway so where's the problem in touching one more time for fingerprint unlock?

                                      • D
                                      • AnonD-909757
                                      • 0JM
                                      • 10 Mar 2020

                                      Anonymous, 10 Mar 2020What on earth do you want then? no notch, then iphones and ... moreWhat I want ? Simple :
                                      Pop up camera, second display on the back or simply a small bezel, in order of preference, any of those with a 3D facial unlock sensor set and a good underdisplay fingerprint scanner (if possible the 3D Sonic Max).
                                      Most peoples think that we should have one or the other, but that's stupid as they serve as fail safe from each other, the Pixel 4 with his facial unlock problem is a big proof of that, when one doesn't work anymore you are happy to have the second one.

                                      I don't want stupid display with chunk of it removed, actually like the majority of peoples, most peoples don't like those and a lot profoundly hate them, in the future the notch and hole hell will be regarded as the dark age of smartphone.

                                      What a stupid idea to try to put more display by REMOVING a part of it, a bezel do a better job, both notch and hole messup with notification and statut icons, and when Android is forced to include feature to compensate for the stupidness that those two things are and even include to "disable" them, effectively turning your phone into a smartphone with a bezel, you know that those things are plain stupid.

                                      The Oppo Find X was great as it was one of the first to have true fulldisplay and 3D facial recognition, but it had issues, it was fragile, his hardware is now outdated, its pop up was the first of its kind and it was fragile back then, he don't have a underdisplay fingerprint scanner.

                                      And now that Qualcomm and Trinamix work together to bring living cell detection with classical IR camera and dot projector used for 3D face recognition plus Qualcomm integrating its feature into his signal processor and that Qualcomm made the 3D Sonic Max which is by far the best as most secure, one of the fastest and most convenient fingerprint reader, the Android smartphone security is about to be massively powered up.

                                      Punch hole and teardrop notch both because they allow for a really limited number of sensor have set a dangerous trend of removing all sensors but a single or dual camera, two camera that by the way are too close from each other to perform even the most basic visual 3D facial recognition in any secured way, and it caused the loss of all useful sensors like 3D facial recognition, frontal floodlight, proximity and ambiant light sensors, which both those last too work way better than using the camera as they are more precise, more reliable and drain less processing power (which also equal less battery drain).

                                      Curved edge display are stupid for many reasons :
                                      *They available reduce internal size in a time where peoples are so obsessed with thin phone that a lot of things, including battery capacity suffer and cooling from that.
                                      *It is more expensive to make and screen protectors are more expensive.
                                      *It is prone to a lot of accidental touch even with the best software based rejection, which by the way require lot of processing power just to compense for that thing and peoples who experience it a lot of the time want to go back to flat display.
                                      *They are prone to glare, which in case of being a front seat passenger can actually be dangerous as it can distract or temporarily blind the driver.
                                      *They render a lot of things unreadable on the edges and a lot of peoples rightfully complain about that.
                                      *They make the phone awkward to hold and more slippery because of the display itself which make the phone more prone to fall, which, with the next point is an hilariously big fail of a combinaison.
                                      *Even with case, the display are extremely exposed to fall and the display have more chances to break as regardless the angle, it is exposed on over 50% of where the phone can fall, and considering they often fall on their edge, that's the stupidest design choice ever.

                                      Pixels don't have underdisplay fingerprint scanner, Google smartphone are probably the worst western ones and are popular for their poor software and feature, they are loaded with issues and stupid design decision, and I am not familiar nor I like the Apple echosystem.

                                      So "everything else is out" ? Are you SERIOUS ? The VAST majority of smartphone have either notch or punch hole or curved edge or the combinaison of both and most, because of that notch/punch hole stupid trend lack any 3D facial recognition...
                                      So why shouldn't I complain about the utter lack of options outside those clearly flawed and majority hated trends ?

                                      So yeah, I am deeply sorry that I offend you to actually fight too MAYBE one day, by showing how some peoples hate those trends, having enough little influence to finally get a smartphone that is slightly close enough to what I want while you have all the alternative you want containing your precious feature that ONLY represent over 95% of the market.

                                      The ironic part is that, I just express my disapproval of the total lack of some features and literal flood of those trending ones, in the goal to have an impact and make things changes, which actually do work regardless what you believe or not, while YOU are coming complaining that I fight for having what I want which is also what a lot of peoples want and is clearly lacking, so who leak salt here ?

                                        • S
                                        • Shawon
                                        • XVP
                                        • 10 Mar 2020

                                        There is no 90Hz or 120Hz refresh rate