Samsung details the ISOCELL HM3 - the 108 MP sensor used in the Galaxy S21 Ultra

15 January 2021
The sensor can output 12-bit HDR, has a low-noise mode, which boosts sensitivity in low light, and an improved autofocus system.

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P C M, 24 Jan 2021You're those kind of people who think them as smart an... moreSure I have gone into countless number of arguments with tens of people in this forum. The difference is between you and me, however, is that at least I'm capable of admitting that I'm wrong whenever I realise that there is a flaw in my logic, but most importantly, I won't try to come out as being cocky to a person who is trying to tell/teach me something, like when you told me you were "continuously disappointed" when I was explaining how IP ratings work to you (Oh yeah sure, you were only "joking", right).

"those kind of people who think them as smart and argue with everyone"
What a coincidence! That's exactly the impression I had of you as well.
You don't have to reply to my other posts either, since I don't have any intention to keep arguing with you. Ta.

    P C M, 24 Jan 2021Longer shutter speed doesn't count here. You can'... moreThree problems with your argument.

    1. Where the hell did you even pull that 2s figure? You're exaggerating, a RYYB sensor only captures 40% more light than a RGB sensor per exposure, so to get equivalent amount of light information to RYYB in shadow areas, you only need to expose less than a half stop longer on RGB (e.g. 1/100s exposure on RYYB captures roughly the same amount of light as 1/70s on RGB).

    2. Absolutely nothing written on the forum post you just linked is related to the dynamic range of the sensor itself, it's entirely dedicated to describe how a RYYB CFA works and how using different colour pigment improves quantum efficiency and so on.

    3. The post itself is in fact a copy-and-paste ripoff from MobileGeek's article (https://www.mobilegeeks.com/review/huawei-p30-pro/) which had been made 2 months before it came out, so there exists not even a single line in this post that has been confirmed by the Huawei official. The product page of P30 Pro indeed talks about AI HDR+ but there is no mention of RYYB CFA on that particular section of the page, either.

    "Where is your proof"
    https://www.dxomark.com/huawei-mate-40-pro-camera-review-dynamic-range-monster/
    Check out the samples from Mate 40 Pro and P40 Pro from the second scene under the Exposure and Contrast section. They both use an identical sensor yet the former captures highlights and shadows far more evenly.

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      • 24 Jan 2021

      Nick Tagataka, 23 Jan 2021P.S. to the conclusion: Also RYYB, due to its nature, has m... moreYou're those kind of people who think them as smart and argue with everyone. So, I am not surprised if I remind you of someone you debated with. Because I strongly believe you've done these thing hundreds of times with dozens of people(As you started this debate too).
      You can think whatever you can I don't really care.

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        • 24 Jan 2021

        Nick Tagataka, 23 Jan 2021"when staking multiple frames together that noise is g... moreLonger shutter speed doesn't count here. You can't really do 1 frame at 2s shutter speed while you have to take multiple frames.
        This is not a single take mode, It's HDR shot. Don't be confused.
        Why would you listen to me, right ?
        Here is some proof from the manufacturer Huawei.(read the last para, or the whole if you want)
        https://consumer.huawei.com/en/community/details/%5BP30-Pro%5D-How-the-RYYB-sensor-on-the-Huawei-P30-Pro-works/topicId_7046/

        So the main point is, You wanna say it's Huawei's processing which makes it better HDR capable. Where is your proof except of those empty words.
        These type of debate never ends. So, we should quit.

          Shui8, 23 Jan 2021Feeling silly yet talking to him? 🥴 Now I know why you decided to stop conversing with him lol. There were some instances in the past where one user kept arguing with me on topics he clearly didn't have much knowledge of and I ended up wasting hours on explaining in this forum. I'm starting to feel the same vibe as I have a discussion with this guy, I guess it's about time for me to back off as well.

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            • 23 Jan 2021

            Nick Tagataka, 23 Jan 2021P.S. to the conclusion: Also RYYB, due to its nature, has m... moreFeeling silly yet talking to him? 🥴

              Nick Tagataka, 23 Jan 2021"when staking multiple frames together that noise is g... moreP.S. to the conclusion: Also RYYB, due to its nature, has more noise in highlights.

              For some reason I strongly feel like I've talked to you before in this forum. Hopefully I'm mistaken..

                P C M, 23 Jan 2021Looks like you need to learn something about hdr. The nois... more"when staking multiple frames together that noise is gone"
                Noises in midtones will be reduced significantly but definitely not so much in highlights nor shadows because each frame is taken at different exposure settings and some frames might not contain any meaningful information for certain parts of the image. A frame that is exposed for shadows most likely cannot be used to reduce noise in highlights, for example. Essentially you're getting less information on highlights and more in shadows - dynamic range isn't "better" in any way in this case. Most importantly, a RGB sensor can acquire just as much shadow information as or possibly even more than a RYYB one by using a slightly (less than half a stop) longer shutter speed.

                RYYB CFA doesn't imitate the effect of a larger sensor size, but rather a wider aperture lens, at an expense of colour accuracy of course. As I already said before, it allows the sensor to take in more light per exposure, but does not change the total amount of light that each pixel can take in, which is limited by the pixel size.

                "High light can be controlled easily with tweak"
                I don't know what you mean by "tweak", but a RYYB sensor suffers from weird discolouration artifacts/hue shift issues in highlights. So in case you think you can just set the exposure slightly higher then compress highlights afterwards, I'm telling you that it's not going to work well.

                To conclude: Your claim is that RYYB sensor can capture more information in shadows per exposure hence has an advantage in dynamic range when performing HDR image stacking. However, that is not true because RYYB CFA's ability to capture more light can be replicated by using slower shutter speed on RGB CFA.

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                  • 23 Jan 2021

                  Nick Tagataka, 23 Jan 2021But at the same time RYYB is noisier in highlights because ... moreLooks like you need to learn something about hdr.
                  The noise thing you talked about HDR on RYYB sensor is true.
                  But when staking multiple frames together that noise is gone. High light can be controlled easily with tweak but it's more important to get the detail in the shadow. No matter how much tweak you do if a sensor isn't capable, it won't get detail from the shadow.
                  I hope I made it clear enough.

                    P C M, 22 Jan 2021HDR shots created by merging multiple images at different e... moreBut at the same time RYYB is noisier in highlights because brighter parts of the image becomes saturated faster than RGB (due to Y pixels), therefore you're forced to set the shutter speed lower for the "bright" exposure frame, reducing the amount of light that goes into R and B pixels. An RYYB sensor can capture more light than an equally sized RGB one PER EXPOSURE, but the amount of light that each pixel can take in BEFORE it gets saturated is exactly the same on both, given the same pixel size.

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                      • 22 Jan 2021

                      Nick Tagataka, 22 Jan 2021What does it even mean by a darker "exposure"? Yo... moreHDR shots created by merging multiple images at different exposure.
                      Bright , medium and dark exposure shots are taken and merged.
                      As RYYB can capture more at darker exposure thus it shows better shadow detail.

                        P C M, 22 Jan 2021RYYB sensor can do better at darker exposer. I guess that... moreWhat does it even mean by a darker "exposure"? You meant a darker SCENE?

                        "Did you just say "You just confirmed RGB sensor has lower dynamic range " ?"
                        No, actually, exactly the opposite.

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                          • 22 Jan 2021

                          Nick Tagataka, 22 Jan 2021By combining multiple exposures with varying shutter speed ... moreRYYB sensor can do better at darker exposer.
                          I guess that answers your question.
                          Also I didn't get your last sentence. Did you just say "You just confirmed RGB sensor has lower dynamic range " ?
                          If that so, then why're we even arguing !

                            P C M, 21 Jan 2021Tell me how HDR shot works. If you can answer that you... moreBy combining multiple exposures with varying shutter speed settings? And how is that anything to do with the sensor's raw dynamic range which I already confirmed to be narrower on RYYB?

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                              • 21 Jan 2021

                              Nick Tagataka, 21 Jan 2021That's not necessarily true because the sensor's ... moreTell me how HDR shot works.
                              If you can answer that you'll have your answer(why RYYB has better HDR) in your answer.

                                P C M, 20 Jan 2021Because of it's more sensitive to the light and can ca... moreThat's not necessarily true because the sensor's exposure time has to be set for Y pixels that will saturate faster than pixels of the other colours, hence there will be less light reaching R and B pixels and the noise level will be higher than that of RGB sensor unless the scene is uniformly dark.

                                There was a time when I compared RAW images shot on my P30 against those on Mate 20 Pro in a retail store - the noise level in shadow regions was shockingly higher on the former, not to mention that the colours were also heavily green-tinted and the images were borderline unusable.

                                Huawei masks those issues in auto mode and their magic seems to be working very well on Mate 40 Pro (Good colours, very low noise and excellent detail rendition), and I'm assuming that's the reason why you came to a conclusion that a RYYB sensor has a better dynamic range than an equally sized RGB sensor. It doesn't, really.

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                                  • 20 Jan 2021

                                  Nick Tagataka, 20 Jan 2021And what makes you think the RYYB sensor somehow has a wide... moreBecause of it's more sensitive to the light and can capture more light than a RGB sensor.
                                  So, at different ISO for HDR image this sensor does good job.

                                    P C M, 20 Jan 2021That's totally wrong. It's the sensor and the RYY... moreAnd what makes you think the RYYB sensor somehow has a wider dynamic range than sensors with RGB Bayer filter?

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                                      • 20 Jan 2021

                                      Nick Tagataka, 19 Jan 2021"the 50MP RYYB sensor capture excellent Dynamic range&... moreThat's totally wrong. It's the sensor and the RYYB CFA mostly.
                                      It has it's downfall too. Bad color in the scene specially at night.
                                      That's the same reason it can't get good details at 50MP.

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                                        • 20 Jan 2021

                                        Nick Tagataka, 19 Jan 2021Mate 40 Pro's 50MP shots are essentially upscaled 12.5... moreWhat happens behind the scene or what happens at bad weather condition that's not my point.
                                        I saw those review comparing those shot. 108MP did better, that's it. Besides your Honor View 20 has completely different sensor. What's you point ?
                                        As I have mentioned earlier full resolution won't have same low light details or dynamic range as binned mode. So, why're you even giving examples on that !
                                        Actually the debate wasn't even on RYBB 50MP vs 108MP.
                                        It was another guy saying full res doesn't provide any benefit of better details than binned mode. That's when I said most of all ISOCELL sensors do great at full resolution.
                                        Then he started a new debate.. and that Shui8 guy just came in the middle.

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