Samsung's Moon shot explained: Scene Optimizer plus Super resolution and AI magic
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- Anonymous
- gDf
- 16 Mar 2023
"So Samsung's moon shots aren't technically fake, they're enhanced using AI."
You are completely(!) wrong gsmarena. It's technically exactly (!) a fake. If that's not a fake, what else? If the moon didn't have any craters tomorrow, the phone would still add craters. People who don't want to call this a fake just don't want to accept that many photos from smartphones are fake due to machine learning, that's why smartphone cameras should NOT use machine learning and that's why machine learning is NOT a feature, it's a disadvantage. A huge misunderstanding. It's a feature when a smartphone camera doesn't have AI and was programmed with human intelligence.
For example, regarding the iPhone 14 Pro, see m.youtube.com/watch?v=rBILZe1eEcE at 2:00 or m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs63a-klQqE&t=566s at 9:11 and 9:17. The iPhone alters numbers (number 57 instead of 12 in the first link) and even fakes the raw files!
Many people don't understand the difference between computational photography and AI. It's a huge difference and many people are not aware that the advantages of smartphone cameras are not due to AI, but due to computational photography. AI actually makes the results worse! A Google Nexus 5x didn't use AI, but computational photography (HDR+). Partly, the jpgs look nearly identical to a Pixel 7 Pro, if you don't pixel peep. You can also read Google's HDR+ paper, machine learning is not mentioned. Machine learning can NOT improve the signal to noise ratio of a photo, only capturing more light by combining multiple frames can improve the signal to noise ratio. Also, people don't seem to understand what "enhancing" means. It means nothing else than adding details that were not there. Even sharpening adds details that were not there (sharpening halos). The huge difference is that machine learning adds details which can't be easily identified as fake whereas sharpening halos or moiré can be easily identified as fake details. That's why machine learning digital zoom is so dangerous.
Another difference is that machine learning uses data from photos (the dataset) that were captured from a different object at a different time and at a different place (that's how machine learning works!) whereas traditional noise reduction or demosaicing algorithms use data from neighbouring pixels of the same(!) photo!
By the way, in the case of the Pixel 7 Pro, machine learning digital zoom (which is mostly active between 20x-30x zoom) actually even reduces the amount of detail. A crop from a 15x photo has more detail than a 30x photo. Even a live photo digital zoom video frame can have more detail, this was the case with my Pixel 3a, too. I also noticed that an S23 Ultra 30x zoom photo of a sign can show letters that don't exist.
So, I have not seen a single smartphone camera where AI had any advantage (apart from effects like portrait mode) and the reason is simple:
It's physically impossible to improve the signal to noise ratio with machine learning because machine learning doesn't capture more light and it is also physically impossible to circumvent diffraction. When Samsung is talking about super resolution, this is nearly exclusively the effect of machine learning. The periscope camera of the S23 Ultra has a pixel size / f-number ratio of 0.23. Planetary photographers know that due to diffraction, even when you have a very sharp lens, it's physically impossible to get more detail, if the pixel size / f-number ratio is between approximately 0.1 and 0.2 , if noise or other factors are not an issue and the S23 Ultra's 0.23 is already very close to 0.2.
Multi frame noise reduction can improve the signal to noise ratio and this can lead to more detail, but this isn't the issue here as it was shown that the S23 Ultra adds craters when a photo of a blurry moon photo is taken.
- M
- Mills
- kB5
- 16 Mar 2023
Long story short,
While the shots are not faked, they're enhanced by AI and such. So while it's not fake, your not getting real results.
- DarlingYext
- 6mM
- 16 Mar 2023
Anonymous, 16 Mar 2023He says exactly what the reddit post claims. Just to earn v... moreYes and they are both right and they both proved it. These photos are fake, the S23 Ultra (or any other phone for that matter) can't see the moon anywhere near as clear as it is showing it to you, making users believe that they took the photo, thus misleading customers. Disgusting.
- ?
- Anonymous
- 8N3
- 16 Mar 2023
DarlingYext, 16 Mar 2023Watch the video that Mrwhosetheboss made about this topic, ... moreHe says exactly what the reddit post claims. Just to earn views.
Dont waste time.
- SuuperBaka
- q}I
- 16 Mar 2023
Anonymous, 16 Mar 2023Literally every shot taking from the camera using processin... more"Literally every shot taking from the camera using processing."
Ok and? There is a difference between processing and AI adding things that weren't there.
"When the phone detects the moon, it uses its moon algorithms it improve the image."
No, it adds in detail that wasn't there. If you take a picture of a High res picture of the moon, blur the image, and then take the photo. You get added detail in the image that wasn't there.
You can't say it's sharpening, you can't say it's "adding detail from multiple frames" because the detail would be the same in all the frames.
It's adding things that weren't even there. They're using AI trained by using 100s of images of the moon.
It's not "improving" the image, it's adding on it and claiming it's improving it.
"It's no different from face smoothing algorithms, or the algorithms the phone uses when it sees grass."
It is very different from that, and even then those face-smoothing algorithms should be considered fake as well imo.
"If you say this is fake, then you have to say that every single image taken from a digital camera (except for RAWs) is also fake."
No, I don't. Every image doesn't add detail to blurry photos from capturing an image of a picture. This moon thing does.
"The only way to get an unprocessed image is to shoot using RAW format. which skips the image processing."
I'm not talking about an unprocessed image, this is just a deflection.
Samsung is misleading consumers into thinking they are taking it with a zoom lens when it's just AI doing all the work.
- L
- Letitbe
- DkD
- 16 Mar 2023
SAMSUNG just forgot to add that * mark on the Moon shot feature.
- ?
- Anonymous
- vGE
- 16 Mar 2023
Even tho it was processed and all that the question remains:
Why ? What was the need to artificially enhance it ? So if I click picture of a margherita pizza will it automatically be enhanced into a veggie delight thru some AI processing 🤔
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- Anonymous
- kHf
- 16 Mar 2023
SuuperBaka, 16 Mar 2023"Nobody believes that that was done without processing... moreLiterally every shot taking from the camera using processing. When the phone detects the moon, it uses its moon algorithms it improve the image. It's no different from face smoothing algorithms, or the algorithms the phone uses when it sees grass. If you say this is fake, then you have to say that every single image taken from a digital camera (except for RAWs) is also fake.
The only way to get an unprocessed image is to shoot using RAW format. which skips the image processing.
- SuuperBaka
- q}I
- 16 Mar 2023
Anonymous, 16 Mar 2023Nobody believes that that was done without processing (espe... more"Nobody believes that that was done without processing (especially since it uses the periscope camera, which isn't 200MP, so it would be outright dumb to assume so)."
I've seen comments talking about 200MP moon shots (Not on here), so there are people that do assume this. I know it uses the periscope, but there are some that don't.
"You're really not helping your case at all here."
Do explain how? Samsung is still misleading consumers regardless if people believe it was done through the 200MP camera or the periscope.
People here bring up Apple for no reason which is something that doesn't help the people defending Samsung.
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- Anonymous
- kHf
- 16 Mar 2023
SuuperBaka, 16 Mar 2023People really out here thinking Samsung's 200MP captur... moreNobody believes that that was done without processing (especially since it uses the periscope camera, which isn't 200MP, so it would be outright dumb to assume so).
You're really not helping your case at all here.
- SuuperBaka
- q}I
- 16 Mar 2023
notafanboy, 16 Mar 2023Perhaps you're too simple to understand this, but Samd... morePeople really out here thinking Samsung's 200MP captures all that detail that's not there. I guess marketing hype does work for some people.
They try to bring up Apple, but whataboutism doesn't help their case either
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- Anonymous
- kHf
- 16 Mar 2023
DarlingYext, 16 Mar 2023What's the difference? Good question. Grass is a good ... moreYou can clearly see the light and dark patches on the moon are in the same places as they were in the raw version in the upscaled picture. That analogy is nonsense.
- DarlingYext
- 6mM
- 16 Mar 2023
bormat, 16 Mar 2023So much drama over nothing...
I mean, what's the diff... moreWhat's the difference? Good question. Grass is a good example too. Well, because Samsung isn't making the Moon look more appealing like they (and many others) do with grass for example, they are making it seem like that their phone can see something perfectly, that it actually can't and neither can you without the proper equipment. The S23 Ultra (and most other phones) can see the grass perfectly, as for how these phones make said thing look like is just a minor difference.
Them turning a completely blurred image into a perfect picture is just as fake as let's say taking a picture of a water bottle and ending up with a picture of a beer can.
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- MrWhoseNotTheBoss
- pLg
- 16 Mar 2023
Ok so my take on the situation. This is really bad because this is what Huawei was allegedly accused of and they denied it. I dont know if Samsung have responded yet (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) The main problem is they are lying in their advertisements because that is one of the main things they say about their phones (The space zoom.) I hope this gets sorted soon I guess you can turn it off but I think its a bad move and Samsung should try and fix this.
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- AnonD-731363
- TmK
- 16 Mar 2023
So much drama over fake samsung advertising.
You all should be a great actors making a big AD about how bad Samsung is missleading and scamming customers.
Just had to say it this way because it sounds cool like oversaturated and overexposed and overprocessed AI taken and made photo of a Moon by Samsung which in a good name and for good reason made obvious fake but act as its a real thing.
Laughing a lot on this.
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- AnonD-731363
- TmK
- 16 Mar 2023
Samn, 16 Mar 2023Galaxy s23 Ultra is the best phone for taking photos and th... moreMan huge sarcasm i see in your words.
If you or i drink 2 or 3 bottles of black absinth yes even S23 ultra will looks like pioneer of photography.
Othervise there are other favorite brands who did a lot better job.
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- Anonymous
- TmK
- 16 Mar 2023
Man and why???
When comes to Photography you hardly find better phone.
No other is even close.
Even old Mate 40 pro or P40 pro does a lot better job.
When comes to real photos since MI 11 ultra all xiaomi top models of a year wins best camera by DOXMark rating.
That so called shit statement is very real prove me wrong if you can then talk.
- DarlingYext
- 6mM
- 16 Mar 2023
AutoFocus, 16 Mar 2023Moon shot or other shots every shot in a Smartphone is heav... moreHeavily processed and fake are two completely different things. The problem is that taking a picture of a blurred moon (or anything for that matter) should result in a high resolution image of a blurred moon, because that's what you are taking a picture of, the perfect fully textured moon you end up with, was never there. If Samsung would only "enhance" the actual moon, then I would call it AI enhancement, but since it can make out the textures on something that never had any to begin with, it's more like AI faking. Especially because tests show that if you hang a blurry picture of the moon on a small thread, the phone will actually remove the thread, or rather replace what you were taking picture of with a perfect picture of the moon. If you add anything on top of the moon, that's when the AI enhancement kicks in and fuses your addition into the replaced moon image.