Flashback: the post-post-PC era

17 April 2022
Tablets tried to kill the PC. Then smartphones tried. Now the tables are turning and PCs are running smartphone software.

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sohail shafayat, 17 Apr 2022There no POST-PC era, nothing can replace a pc. PC means op... moreOne major reason would be for the Cloud Market.
That's rapidly expanding thanks to going mainstream with ADSL/4G, and now very usable thanks to Fibre/5G. So previously Intel had a strong dominance there, with the majority running Linux System (usually Debian-based), but a lot of profits for MS/Windows.

Now? AMD has the faster, more efficient, and cheaper platform compared to Intel. And better than Ryzen are ARM-based servers. In that market, it's entirely Linux wether a custom job or through Amazon Systems.

The other reason is also mobile computing. Apple Laptops, from 12in, 14in, 16in that are using the M1/Pro/Max are superior to their Windows counterpart when it comes to Single-core, Multi-thread, GPU, and Battery Life. Microsoft's poor approach has cost them dearly here, because they were stupid, stubborn, and didn't embrace the changing market.

So why is it the case that ARM cores have the trifecta advantage in ENERGY, PERFORMANCE, COST ? Well, it is due to several reasons. The cost issue comes from the monopoly set by Intel, with the market barely stabilising now with AMD. Whereas on ARM, the way SoftBank has unified the system and made their licenses enables cooperative innovation and competition. The performance also comes from over 6-years of neglect by Intel (and the inability for alternative x86 to compete). And the ENERGY aspect comes from believe it or not the archaic system of Windows, and the built-up excess/junk within x86 instruction set. Sure, x86 (aka CISC) has undergone changes since it's early days in the early 80s, mid 90s, and late 00s but they haven't shed most of these. Contrast that to ARM (RISC) which closed off individual architecture levels such as ARM11 (iPhone 3G/Google G1), ARMv7 (iPhone 5/Nexus 6), ARMv8 (iPhone 7/Pixel 2), ARMv8.2 (iPhone 11/Pixel 4), ARMv9 (iPhone 14/Pixel 7). So ARM is roughly on a 6-yearly cadence of changing and updating their architecture platform.

Now, it is true that desktops aren't upgraded often (6 years), whereas laptops are a little quicker (4 years), and phones are very rapidly renewed (2 years). So this means the x86-architecture cannot be upgraded as often. However, they still need to do some "shedding" in an interval, and I think every 12-years (double length of ARM) is appropriate for x86. The funny part is, whilst MS is neglecting to do this, and it is being hesitated by Intel/AMD, they will do it soon due to necessity. That means "new x86" chipsets that run newish-programs but they lack a lot of things for legacy support, and either have to do it through slow/software-emulation or by upgrading the hardware to ones which include specialised co-processors to handle those legacy code. We had this partially done with the original 1st-gen Core-i processors and then later with 1st-gen Ryzen, but it was very partial.

    dbjungle, 21 Apr 2022Chrome OS offers significantly more functionality compared ... moreAhhh, you're not including ChromeOS tablets when you refer to tablets...or you at least consider them different offerings to android tablets. I understand.

    What are your thoughts on the Duet 5 vs Flex 5?

      Pumpino, 20 Apr 2022You mentioned that tablets aren't useful enough to car... moreChrome OS offers significantly more functionality compared to iOS or Android. I think it's a fair point if we're comparing a small Android tablet to an Android phone. At that point your personal use case would be the differentiator.

        dbjungle, 18 Apr 2022I'm not sure if this was clear or not, but the hypthet... moreYou mentioned that tablets aren't useful enough to carry with you as they don't provide much more than a larger screen. An 8" tablet would offer only a modest increase in screen size compared to a phone, and not provide the added functionality of a laptop. I guess I'm interested in the usefulness of a tablet, given that small ones are pretty much just large phones and large ones are inferior to laptops.

          Kangal, 20 Apr 2022MS hasn't chosen Point 2, or Point 1. They went with &... moreYeah they could have forced it, but the windows share is much bigger than mac, businesses would need to see a clear improvement over x86 to switch to arm, and then theres porting all their software to arm. So something like the m1 on the windows side would be needed, and right now i have heard of only the nuvia cores acquired by qualcomm that promise to do it.

          i have seen some ampere altra beating the epyc in some benchmarks, and seems to have higher efficency too. But thats all linux.

            Mediatek sux, 19 Apr 2022Sure any app will run, but it wont be offering the same fea... moreMS hasn't chosen Point 2, or Point 1. They went with "anything" and let the market decide. The problem with that, is it causes a lot of problems and makes Windows a worse experience which directly hurts MS.

            Yes and No.
            Continuum = Windows-on-ARM.
            If something doesn't play on WoA, it won't play on Continuum. And the features that you get on a Desktop PC is the exact same that you see on WoA and Continuum. If there are ANY differences, it is because either the developer has a "mobile" version of that program, and they have nominated that to be run on WoA / Continuum instead of the full-Desktop version. It is literally a checkbox in the SDK, and it's chosen by the developer. I think the upcoming Windows 11S is doing the same thing. It can run all UWP. But if the developer needs to opt-in, or if they actively opt-out, you will get different experiences.

            So if there is a poor experience for the user, that is mostly on the developer to blame. I do think MS should have been more heavy handed, and forced all future developers to HAVE to support it, kind of like how Apple operates. Sure, it pisses off some developers for a short period, but they adapt and they forget, but it really gets the ball moving forward.

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              • Anonymous
              • 63x
              • 20 Apr 2022

              kek, 17 Apr 2022This Post-PC era is like the "Year of Linux" joke... moreI'm a Linux user and couldn't agree more about the so-called "Year of Linux". It's NEVER going to happen, especially when you are keep getting flooded with more and more desktop distro. The only reason why I use Linux is its open source nature, and that's it.

                Kangal, 19 Apr 2022That's the thing you're not understanding. Windo... moreSure any app will run, but it wont be offering the same features you'd get on the desktop version, right? Like the office suite. So where continuum is better than windows on arm is if they made apps for phone and pc mode while changing only the ui. While WoA just ports some apps from x86 to arm and emulates the rest. Less work but more performance hit.

                About your last point, point 2 seems more likely.

                  JohnScig, 19 Apr 2022Well, how about people who do a lot of work on social media... moreYou can reply directly to me, use reply button at the bottom right corner of my post.

                    YUKI93, 19 Apr 2022myTube is not a video downloader. It's a third-party Y... moreSo its ok for the kind of work that requires only the phone apps features but needs to work well with a kb and mouse, and specific apps that were made to work with it.

                      Mediatek sux, 19 Apr 2022I got the ui part, but what about feature parity? Could the... moreThat's the thing you're not understanding.
                      WindowsRT evolved into Windows 8 Common, and this evolved into Windows10 Mobile. And that included Continuum. And Continuum IS Windows-on-ARM. They are the same. Whatever you can run on Continuum you can run on WoA. Windows-on-ARM is now killed, and that is evolving into Windows 11S.

                      I'll tell you the differences between Continuum and WoA.
                      Continuum runs on the phone, and these are Snapdragon 835 based processors. Any Windows App will run. The caveat is that the developer has to tick a button/allow you to run it on there (UWP), unless you crack/hack that specific UWP. The UI scales into a Desktop UI mode. On Continuum you cannot run Compatability Mode for older Windows Xp executibles (x86_32bit).

                      Windows-on-ARM runs on the ARM laptop. It scales the UI for tablet mode, which is similar to Desktop UI mode but not the same. This runs on the Snapdragon 850, and several other processors Made for Snapdragon Laptops. It runs any Windows App, as long as the developer allows you to run it. It includes a software emulation for Compatability Mode for Windows Xp executibles (x86_32bit). But this emulator is not great, it is nothing like Apple's M1 and Rosetta2, which is using hybrid-translation technique.

                      Windows 11S is releasing a new version, not out yet, so that it can do software emulation of Windows7 executibles (x86_64bit). I have even less faith in it.

                      I think there's two ways to go about this:
                      1- Kill off legacy support, over a long period, forcing everyone to use either ARM/X86 with the new UWP working on both flawlessly. Best option.
                      2 - Only support specific ARM processors, like M1, which includes special co-processors that can run x86 code on the SoC. And have a hybrid-translation technique for x86_64. And let people deal with the fragmentation problems between Intel laptops and ARM laptops.

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                        • JohnScig
                        • K63
                        • 19 Apr 2022

                        Well, how about people who do a lot of work on social media? You can take pictures with your phone (or camera, most cameras can dump pictures through their app, no need to fiddle with memory sticks), then connect the phone to a screen and edit them, cut video & audio if needed and release on instagram, all without powering up your PC.

                        What about people whose job it is to stare at spreadsheets all day and write analyses? Both MS and Google offer office suites on Android, not to mention their in-browser offerings. Unless you specifically need an x86 software, you could potentially do your work from your phone connected to a screen.

                        And what about people like me who DO need x86 apps? Well, how about owning a PC I can upgrade and customize at will, then connecting to it remotely through my phone? MS already has a pretty solid remote desktop app, not to mention solutions like Parsec. This removes the need to push and pull branches, maintain software on 2 separate computers, moving files, etc etc.

                        What if you bought a bunch of older Galaxy phones for your family and then just a single screen or a lapdock and everybody could share that instead of buying several laptops that will get old fast?

                        Lapdocks and desktop modes are NOT for everyone, but I feel like there's plenty of people who they would be absolutely perfect for. Especially people who just wanna browse the web, but they want a bigger screen. Seriously, ask yourself how many things you do in a day that absolutely requires a computer and could never be done on a phone. Obviously Apple won't jeopardize their iPad sales by creating a mac-dock, and Google would probably prefer having phones and chromebooks sold separately, but isn't it time we stopped letting these companies dictate what the future of tech is solely based on their bottom lines?

                          Mediatek sux, 19 Apr 2022I got the ui part, but what about feature parity? Could the... moremyTube is not a video downloader. It's a third-party YouTube client developed using Windows UWP platform. Since I'm still using my Microsoft Lumia 950 as my current daily driver, I can definitely vouch that myTube shows the best example of UWP. When you use it on the phone in landscape mode, it really shows the same UX as its PC counterpart. Disqus, Readit, ReddPlanet, and Unigram also got the whole UWP UX right.

                            kek, 18 Apr 2022Not really. The idea behind UWP was that you had one code t... moreI got the ui part, but what about feature parity? Could the office apps on the phone work just like the x86 versions just by connecting a display? I dont think a video downloader is much of a good example.

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                              • TheGalaxy
                              • rRU
                              • 18 Apr 2022

                              Anonymous, 18 Apr 2022Lol please, Android still can't run desktop softwares.... moreThat's exactly the point. Andros doesn't need to run desktop software. That would be an old way of computing.

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                                • kek
                                • GBh
                                • 18 Apr 2022

                                Ramsey, 17 Apr 2022ARM is not more expensive than x86, if anything, is cheaper... moreyes but that's the chip alone, which in x86_64 case, you can swap it out and resell it later while keeping the rest of components for an upgrade.

                                In ARM's case, you would have to sell the whole motherboard, meaning, at that point you are better off picking up something from Apple and save you the trouble.

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                                  • kek
                                  • GBh
                                  • 18 Apr 2022

                                  Mediatek sux, 18 Apr 2022Even if continuum ran apps natively, wouldnt they only have... moreNot really. The idea behind UWP was that you had one code that could be deployed natively to anything Windows: PC, Mobile, Tablet, Xbox, IoT. The screen themselves could changes size natively without having to write code for it. We saw several apps take advantage of this, like MyTube.

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                                    • Anonymous
                                    • 63x
                                    • 18 Apr 2022

                                    Mediatek sux, 18 Apr 2022Even if continuum ran apps natively, wouldnt they only have... moreI think of the same thing. Windows on ARM does have fully working x86 emulation and still-WIP x64 emulation.

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                                      • Anonymous
                                      • 63x
                                      • 18 Apr 2022

                                      TheGalaxy, 18 Apr 2022PCs are already out. Because PCs can't do GPS navigat... moreLol please, Android still can't run desktop softwares. Also, no one need GPS when at home.

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                                        • TheGalaxy
                                        • kh8
                                        • 18 Apr 2022

                                        PCs are already out. Because PCs can't do GPS navigation, phone call and text, take pictures and game wherever and whenever you want.

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