Samsung announces two new ISOCELL sensors

30 October 2018
The new sensors are 48MP and 32MP with Tetracell technology.

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Anonymous, 03 Nov 2018Wow this sensor not being ready negates many others from th... moreWell it is not technically difficulties in making larger sensors that are stopping them...

But to be used in phones&phablets we would need thicker devices (or protruding lenses) than are currently in fashion. It is a matter of physical limitations with current technology and the angle the light hits especially the edges/corners of the sensor, and also the lenses ability to focus. See other posts with links on some of the limitations.

  • Anonymous

Shanti Dope, 01 Nov 2018"They always debbie similar image sensors. " Wow! So the S... moreWow this sensor not being ready negates many others from the past??
And Samsung hasn't been working on 1/1.7 inch sensors and higher resolutions ones for a while either.
It's ridiculous it's taken Sony or Samsung this long.

And wow Samsung was also doing different things in the past with things like mega pixels. In fact were usually first in releasing up until 12mp. And only usually beaten in quality by Nokia.

And what does Sony do now a days with those? Stick to f2 when Samsung has dual aperture f1.5. And still have no ois when it's been standard for years. And then everyone says they don't need it like good keyboard warriors.

Not to mention all the other things Samsung released first in mobile cameras.
They all copy each other on some things. These kinds of claims from your type is just silly.

EskeRahn, 02 Nov 2018Interesting ideas, but remember that though the curvature o... moreIf we work together and spread these ideas, it could grow in to a movement.
There seems to be a lot of people looking for different solutions compared to what we are offered.
If we can crystalize some really clever ideas, perhaps some makers would take advantage of being presented well thought out ideas, and implement them.

When it comes to phones that are thicker on one side, well in some cases they would fit just as well in pockets… Legs for example are curved, so in the front pocket it might not make a difference at al.
The chest is curved, so depending on where the pocket is, that could also work.

The curve, should also be beneficial for handheld gaming as it would provide a better grip for when thumbs are removed from the on screen controls.
Or for better grip when using a side-sliding qwerty keyboards.

I really can’t think of many reasons to why makers insists on flat devices. Many still aren’t flat on a surface due to the camera.
And when the backs are curved, they are thickest at the middle, that doesn’t really make sense… Sloping would make much more sense, and when it comes to how thick the unit could be at the thickest point, using a sloping design would allow for an even thicker part at the right side.

I’m still not a fan of phablets though, even if they came with smarter design or ways of controlling them with one hand.
But at least they would be better than they are now.

Based on the external dimensions of the RX100, a mobile that would just about fit the lens on the back, would be about 56-58mm wide (tall on a camera).
With tiny bezels, that would translate to somewhere 4.4-4.6 diagonal size @ 16:9.
And the thickness somewhere in the region 35-38mm, at the thickest point where the lens is.
The upper practical limit for such a device would probably be max 5” 16;9 equivalent display, and making it smaller than 4.4” would make little sense. So that is probably the span 4.4-5”.

Heavy and quite thick, but manageable, for those that want the best imaging in a mobile.
Or a bigger compact camera with larger screen and connectivity, and in phone tools for processing images.

The RX100 lacks ultra wide angle. But given the depth of a RX100 mobile, it should be possible to fit an ultra wide angle lens with OIS, and a sensor that outdoes anything on the market right now, somewhere on the device. Such a module could also be made simpler and just used for presenting the field of view possible with some ultra wide angle panning mode.

That sensor shift algorithm for the Pixel 3, sounds impressive… I think I’ve only heard of things like that in medium and large format cameras.
Technology like that is beneficial no matter the size of the sensor, if the hardware and software can handle it.

Jon.SWE, 01 Nov 2018If there was a anatomically designed phone, that like today... moreInteresting ideas, but remember that though the curvature of the back could make room for better cameras, a thicker device is also less pocketable. Already today's phablets are not easy pocketable, and it certainly would not help if they got thicker (though of course they would be less prone to bending)

If we ignore these obstacles a device with a a sideways curvature of the back, on the major part except the top, could have a "T" shaped resting surface on the table, and thus not get completely unstable.

EskeRahn, 01 Nov 2018Indeed a pointer system could be made. I was not aware of A... moreIf there was a anatomically designed phone, that like todays phones is designed to be as wide as one could possibly grip... looking at the hand, the thickest part for a possible curved back, is close to the thumb, not the middle.
That could be cleverly used, for getting maximum depth for a camera.
It would make the device sloping towards one side when on a flat surface, but if it is used for video watching (or gaming with hand-control), that would be better than flat, if the device is in landscape position. And if the phone is positioned next to the person on a desk, beside the keyboard of a computer, or other working surface, sloping towards the person, would make it easier to see what is happening on the phone, by just using peripheral vision.
On a Samsung Note, it could also provide larger slot for the pen, so it could be made more comfortable.
It could also offer larger speaker chambers for speakers.

With the right design, there could be a finger-grip about half way the width, where one could hold the device pretty balanced, and get close to maximum reach for the thumb on the front, for one hand use... though it would still require downsizing the interface depending on the size of the device and the person's hand size. And it would not solve the one finger navigation limitation for interaction. (could perhaps be solved somehow by integrating some system in the finger grip on the back, it is mostly the zoom function that needs activation somehow).

But such design would require using flexible battery technology, to fit as much battery capacity as possible within the device, and possibly using more than one battery.

It would be an interesting approach. Some company daring to make a phone that isn't the standard thinness, and instead focusing on anatomy and getting max out of the device. (best possible camera, more cubic centimeters for battery, and perhaps a pen with a better grip and about possibly speakers)

EskeRahn, 01 Nov 2018Indeed a pointer system could be made. I was not aware of A... moreBut if the trackpad/touch-enabled keyboard is a part that slides out of the phone, it would be used when it makes sense. So that way, it is the method of controlling when one want to go one handed, or for gaming. And if it comes with a physical keyboard, it would have that function as well.
Mobile gaming is getting big though... Perhaps one maker would come to their senses and realize the potential for one handed operation, if they add some sort of gaming control that slides out. The part the slides out, would have to be able to support holding the device in only that... Plus, it needs those function keys.

The problem with one handed operation of a touchscreen phone as well as a trackpad, is that there aren't really any smart gestures when using only a single finger. And that would have to be rectified somehow. And function keys is probably better then trying to come up with gestures that would somehow work, or long press and select action, and perform that, and then switch back.
With the right function keys, the one handed mode of the Samsung phones could work. They could even have a touchpad mode, using a small portion of the screen, floating and/or docking with the screen adopting to that.

Well a RX100 Phone, would probably be ca 35-38mm around the optics.
You can test building a phone to that thickness, by holding something under the phone (you probably have some different sized phones somewhere, or you could just test different sized cardboard boxes and mark how far your thumb reaches and then calculate possible screen sizes from that.. but the width is of course important as well as the depth).
Keep in mind that with a thick phone, one doesn't have to reach the upper edge of the left side, if there is something to give a good grip.
Depending on the width of the device, the back could also be slightly curved (perhaps more on the right side to better fit in the hand, and give the thumb a bit more reach). (the lens would need some width, but not the full height of the RX100 camera without curvation as there is some area around the protruding lens that could have been slightly curved).

One could make dummies and test with friends, how big displays they could reach, to get a rough idea. I don't have the energy for that. I would get close to 5" if bezels were minimal based on my quick tests, but I have longer finger than the average person. The thing here, is that my reach doesn't change that much compared to slimmer modern phones, because of limitations in anatomy.

I'm not saying though that the device would be any more pocket friendly that phablets, as the thickness is a bit too much.
And it would be quite heavy we are talking over 300 grams here. So headset for talking in it.

I wonder if the it would need a separate chip, or if the snapdragon processor with the dedicated image processor could handle the image processing and compete with Sony at it.

Well well... it is unlikely that someone is going to make such a phone. Unless they are looking for the bragging rights.
On the other hand it could be a powerful compact camera, with built in connectivity, with the calling thrown in there as a useful backup.
(it would be the mobile camera king in every aspect but specified resolution, but I'm quite sure the actual captured resolution, would at least in 99 times of 100 outperform the latest high resolution mobile sensors, that also uses the quad bayer filter that isn't designed for resolution primarily.... But there would still be the 808... Not that it captured anywhere near specified resolution, but people still think it did)

I do have to point that I'm well aware of the Panasonic CM1, 1" sensor mobile.
But I think that tried a little too much to still be primarily a phone and not Cameraphone, in its approach. So the lens didn't zoom (but it had to move out of the body to achieve focus).
Android and chipsets running android wasn't mature, mobile image software processing wasn't mature. Even if "RX100 phone" would require dedicated image processing chip, it would still offer an android environment where those images could be used and processed, the CM1 did not.

EskeRahn, 01 Nov 2018So many discussions are based on feelings and myths rather ... moreI never understood the whole fanboyism mentality and attacking others for their choices. Many people fan so hard for a brand to a point they make it personal.

As tech enthusiasts we should be excited and celebrate each OEMs innovations and releases. It influences the mobile landscape and forces other companies to respond and push tech further. We as consumers are the ones that benefit from this.

I guess Samsung's doing their best to bring their camera game up

geewaiho, 01 Nov 2018Gosh your so clever, I felt dumb reading your post lolSo many discussions are based on feelings and myths rather than facts.
I try to induce a little facts.

I wish people in general would accept/understand that ALL devices are a result of a lot of different compromises, since our wishes can be self contradicting, and certainly differ among different people.

I try to see things from a wider perspective than my own wishes.

That I want a specific type of device does by far mean that it is the 'right' one for everybody else - and I wish others would try to do the same. We need a variety of devices for a variety of people with different needs/wants (and economy)

EskeRahn, 01 Nov 2018Well most likely what we see as cheating started very long ... moreGosh your so clever, I felt dumb reading your post lol

Jon.SWE, 31 Oct 2018Well, but my idea is based on using the mouse support in an... moreIndeed a pointer system could be made. I was not aware of Android supporting mouse.
But as phones/phablets go full coverage, it would be more natural to use the whole display rather than a dedicated area as a trackpad, with a user selectable movement factors depending on the reach. Should not be that hard to implement and definitely much simpler than changing the UI-guidelines as I suggested.
The Priv also had the capacitive sensitive keyboard. But Keyboard are not generally going to come back, neither as sliders nor the odd Key½ form factor. At best it will remain a niche for a small user group. Sad to say, as I'm in the group...

On the folding, well assuming one fold, I agree, not very practical. But think two folds, folding over like an "e" this would have three parts all roughly 16:9, as would the unfolded.
When/ the technology allows for sharper bends, we could even have it "Z" shaped, that would feel more natural (but leaving one third unprotected like a normal slab).

A phone/phablet with a 1" sensor would (with current optical technology) need to be quite thick. It is both a matter of having the lens focusing sharp on the entire area, and the angle the light hits the sensor. But curved sensors has been made, and this could be the solution on the last part, but things gets really complicated here, as this would mean smaller pixels towards the edges and corners of the image area...

shagrasniper, 31 Oct 2018EskeRahn, Thank you for your infos (you seem pretty knowled... moreWell most likely what we see as cheating started very long back at the time of the vidicon tubes, measuring the tubes and not the active area of the tube. And as the first photo-sensor-chips came out, they would seem worse than they were if they started using the active diameter, and the tubes used the outer diameter.
The only way to get out of this would be to use a completely new measurement, say the area rather than this 'diameter'.

It is often not easy to be "honest" in advertising.

E.g. Should each of the R,G and B sub-pixels on a standard sensor really be counted as 1 pixel each?
Currently information is interpolated to pretend that each pixel got the full colour info by clever algorithms 'borrowing' info from neighbouring sub-pixels. So it is really hard to actually say how many pixels the SENSOR got and not just how many pixels a processed IMAGE from the sensor got. Splitting hairs it may seem - but it is a factor of three...
And Foveon sensors where each pixel have three readouts (R+G+B), they then also count sub-pixels like the rest of the industry does.... They sort of has to, as counting honest would make them seem worse than they are...

Anonymous, 31 Oct 2018They always debbie similar image sensors. And again. That... more"They always debbie similar image sensors. "
Wow! So the Sony and Samsung engineers somehow have interconnected minds, that they manage to think the same thing at the same time?? Crazy! Not.

When Sony introduced their first smartphone camera, it was at least different in other ways. Some things like different megapixel count, different aperture, different sensor, etc.
This Samsung even had the 48MP resolution of the GM1 from the IMX586, as well as the sensor size of 1/2".

And I don't believe it's ready for release yet. You see, it only took them a month or two to build the sensors. If it's not copying, it would take them at least 6 months to develop their own unique thing. Again, I'd like to be corrected on the part that Samsung didn't have any plans on creating such sensors like these before Sony announced the IMX586, and the best way of doing it is by showing reliable proofs of it. I guess there's no article about it, eh?

Cali, 31 Oct 2018You buy fake knockoff korean products. Original products i... moreKorea products always has great marketing but it durability under expectations.

  • Anonymous

SpiritWolf, 31 Oct 2018Phone with a camera doesn't = camera phone. If i remember c... moreTwist the words however you want. First phone with camera. So it was a camera phone. How just regurgitating nonsensical claims to support your own opinion.

  • Anonymous

CptPower, 31 Oct 2018Well when comes to technology Samsung is always as with the... moreTypical response from you

Anonymous, 31 Oct 2018If they could get good enough ISP's and results that would ... moreWell when comes to technology Samsung is always as with their updates last on the track or line.

Anonymous, 31 Oct 2018Twist the words however you will it was the first phone wit... morePhone with a camera doesn't = camera phone. If i remember correctly there were phones before mentioned Samsung model that had attachable camera module (Wasn't it some Ericsson phone, i really don't remember.). So... Btw, majority of tech historians agree on this. Sharp made first camera phone.

  • Anonymous

CptPower, 31 Oct 2018When they release them huawei will have a 100 Mpix camera m... moreIf they could get good enough ISP's and results that would actually be amazing

  • Anonymous

SpiritWolf, 31 Oct 2018Actually first camera phone was Sharp J-SH04. IF by Samsun... moreTwist the words however you will it was the first phone with a camera