Flashback: periscope zoom cams with smooth zoom are the future, but we already had them
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- O S
- r39
- 29 Dec 2020
YUKI93, 28 Dec 2020That is going to be one heck of a thick phone. Not that I m... moreIMX689 diagonal is 11.25mm, L x B = 9mm x 6.75mm.
Periscope thickness ~ 9mm
Camera bump / Phone thickness ~ 13mm
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- AnonD-909757
- pZV
- 29 Dec 2020
Thanks, and most of those issues aren't big of a deal, solvable or not an issue at all.
*It doesn't prevent phones like the LG Wing from existing, it's special mechanism and interface may never be used again by LG, making it an ultimate low yield set of features.
Plus, we can simply make more, literally most Flagships and camera phones can potentially get this.
*We live in a world where we can manipulate Individuals atoms, to the point we made a short animation out of atoms, we reliability mass product nanometer scale components, we have high resolution Fresnel lens able to handle high resolution VR where the eye is mm away and show a 2k content, there is the Meta lens which literally makes the path of individual photons in visible light spectrum.
Combined with parabolic lens (remove spherical aberration) and deformable mirrors (mirror don't suffer from chromatic aberration), all the calibrations and rectifications methods...
It won't really be an issue.
*The Huawei P40 Pro+ periscope have light bouncing out of 5 mirror, like my concept, and it is class leading.
Plus my concept allow for a massive aperture to be used on both Telephoto and Ultra-Wide without suffering from shallow depth of field, allowing a lot of light collection, as at the end how big is the aperture compared to the sensor and how much percentage is kept (focal length) is what matters.
*I literally listed 3 ways to get around that...
*That's the point, computational photography use multiple inputs to fill gaps and improve the quality through additional data from the other sensors, which is the whole point of the crazy 2x APS-C + 6 sensors of my fictional concept phone, to use a lot of data to build a picture quality well above what any single sensor could.
But almost no one do that as you pointed out, so until they decide to really put those AI to work, I better have a monster sensor, like the futur Oppo & Sony collab for an IMX-689 successor that deserves all modes, than only having it on the Wide because they could do something that they actually don't.
My concept already use one Reflex-like tiltable mirror for getting images from the front camera, and mirrors on a simple rotating system to switch between periscopes.
Watch out for deformable mirrors (a tech that come from space observation) and Metalenses.
- O
- O S
- r39
- 28 Dec 2020
Anonymous, 28 Dec 2020You want f1.4 for Ultra Wide?
Also fixed aperture for var... moreIMX689 has 2×2 On-Chip Lens omnidirectional PDAF and 2.24µm pixel @ 12MP
https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/e/products/IS/mobile/2_2_ocl.html
SD888 can shoot 120fps @ 12MP
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- TC
- pM5
- 28 Dec 2020
still the best camera phone
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- Anonymous
- t@g
- 28 Dec 2020
Jk19, 27 Dec 2020The first zoom feature popular phone goes to Nokia 808, and... morewell. there's actually an article about that here on GSMArena;
https://m.gsmarena.com/counterclockwise_periscope_cameras_are_old_news_optical_zoom_dates_back_to_2004-amp-36053.php
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- PcM
- mKf
- 28 Dec 2020
Should I mention that I waited for a gsmarena review of Asus zoom that never happened? Till now I don't understand why that phone was overlooked by gsmarena considering that it was very innovative.
I had an Asus zoom and it had an ok camera, but not the best for its time. But the variable zoom was unique and with some tweaks it could approach a galaxy s6 in photo quality.
And yes I'm personally still waiting for a phone with variable optical zoom. Vivo and Xiaomi advertised this but so far nothing. I'll keep my fingers crossed :)
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- wayne34
- nDR
- 28 Dec 2020
I had the asus zenfone zoom, the camera wasn't any good and the phone was overheating, reaching 53
°C , the battery was lasting 5 hours of usage...
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- Anonymous
- gP9
- 28 Dec 2020
It was the G5 not G6 from LG that started the ultrawide. The article either had a typo or didn't research enough...
- YUKI93
- ibX
- 28 Dec 2020
O S, 28 Dec 2020#edited Snapdragon 888 has triple ISP, this provides the o... moreThat is going to be one heck of a thick phone. Not that I mind about the phone's thickness since I'm totally okay with using a large ones.
- YUKI93
- ibX
- 28 Dec 2020
TheGoldenMellifluous, 27 Dec 2020Hmm, wait... I thought that Asus Zenfone 3 Zoom / Zenfone Z... moreIf ASUS retained the periscope zoom camera for the Zenfone 3 Zoom, then it can definitely be considered as a successor to this phone. But unfortunately, the Zenfone 3 Zoom is just a normal phone with the same wide/telephoto camera setup, just like you get in an Apple iPhone 7 Plus or a Xiaomi Mi A1 at that time.
- YUKI93
- ibX
- 28 Dec 2020
Nick Tagataka, 28 Dec 2020Good luck fitting all those massive periscope modules insid... moreI wouldn't mind having a thick phone in favour of more advanced camera hardware and also a large battery capacity.
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- someone123
- 3%b
- 28 Dec 2020
AnonD-909757, 28 Dec 2020I hate how I kept accidentally hitting the "submit&quo... moreInteresting concept but there are a few issues:
- manufacturing is more difficult with lower yield rates, perhaps even offsetting even the cost of 1 sensor
- tolerance and aberration stack-up
- similar to the above, but light needs now travel through more elements, each adding losses
- large sensors require large glass, there's no way to get around this. That's why manufacturers stick small sensors and apertures for tele modules
- an advantage of using multiple modules is that readout can be performed simultaneously,
leading to some 'fusion' scenarios. I think Apple is the only company that uses this, for now
I do see some clear advantages such as:
- a single module for everything with simplified steering, WB, exposure
- no alignment issues (nobody but Apple cares anyway)
Without splitting the optical path and losing a lot of light, the only reasonable way to switch lenses would be via tiltable mirrors. Those are quite easy to manufacture and drive.
I think the future lies in morphable (fluid) or computational (e.g. Lytro) lenses but I have no idea how far the first field is from market. For the second one, I think there is a full development effort and we will see advancements quite soon.
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- ayaz
- U@F
- 28 Dec 2020
Asus did a good job with ZenFone zoom.
But they did a lot better with ZenFone zoom 3 or zoom S.
one of my favorite device till date.
I'm using the same device from last 3 years.
waiting for another sequel to this, but unsure if it will lauch..
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- Nick Tagataka
- Xpf
- 28 Dec 2020
O S, 28 Dec 2020#edited Snapdragon 888 has triple ISP, this provides the o... moreGood luck fitting all those massive periscope modules inside a pocket sized smartphone body lmfao.
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- Shui8
- KZK
- 28 Dec 2020
Schlafwandler, 27 Dec 2020I‘m just wondering why those camera companies are not alrea... moreLeica collaboration works well for Huawei. But I love to see more originated from their own company smartphone. Zeiss currently only provide lens, not as Leica that hugely involved in image processing as well inside Huawei (Plus theres no advantage yet if your phone got Zeiss lens).
Fujifilm & Ricoh are the most interesting for me. Would love to see how their smartphone camera will turns out.
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- Anonymous
- LkB
- 28 Dec 2020
O S, 28 Dec 2020#edited
Snapdragon 888 has triple ISP, this provides the o... moreSamsung used a 31mm2 sensor for periscope, the module beyond was huge.
You want 4 sensors of 60mm2 ?
LOL ..........
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- Anonymous
- LkB
- 28 Dec 2020
O S, 28 Dec 2020#edited
Snapdragon 888 has triple ISP, this provides the o... moreYou want f1.4 for Ultra Wide?
Also fixed aperture for variable zoom?
Do you know how larger module gets?
Why this fetish for 689? Not even the best sold by Sony.
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- AnonD-909757
- pZV
- 28 Dec 2020
AnonD-909757, 28 Dec 2020"it's impossible to have a single do-it-all camer... moreI hate how I kept accidentally hitting the "submit" button when on my phone...
Note that this is only a proof of concept with a big size improvement margin here, and I since improved the concept but have not yet made a 3D model.
The new version have a dedicated focus periscope for the Ultra-Wide and another for the Telephoto, then both get to the same periscope but from different ends, as a backward Telephoto is an Ultra-Wide and a backward Ultra-Wide is a Telephoto, it is limited to a 3x magnification to keep the initial super wide aperture compatible.
Note that in this design the aperture is fixed and significantly wider than the periscope and the sensor, and rather than reducing it to have a bigger f value, an angle rectification is built in the focussing part, allowing a maximum light collection while having a deep focus and depth of field control, it allow to keep the same amount of light while allowing deep depth of field.
But it isn't it, as while the Ultra-Wide and front camera path directly go to the sensor, the Telephoto path can get to a second 3x periscope stage, allowing a 9x final optical magnification.
Though this second one use a regular fixed aperture as it would take too much space to make a second focus rectifier.
As for sensor size, I have multiple solutions, from "cutting" the sensor in two or more horizontal slices and spread the image into them, using rounded aspherical/parabolic sensors, to a non linear 90° reflector to allow a big sensor laying inside the device.
This last method is what I envisioned for my fictional concept phone :
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/ykYfaa6
Which by the way could be designed using a single sensor too,as there is a dual APS-C variant and an single APS-H one.
Except that in this concept this pushed to the extreme and requires more than just pure optical to work.
One sure thing, we can clearly have a 1 front element & 1 sensor setup that allow everything from Ultra-Wide to Telephoto with a continuous zoom, great light gathering and amazing quality.
But just using two of those could already be a big improvement, one for Wide to Ultra-Wide, and another for Wide to Telephoto, putting a deep and super close focus allow the Telephoto to make great native Macro, and a deep depth of field control allow it to have even closer Macro and a native Portrait.
My setup only makes senses when you have a best of the best sensor which is ultra expensive, but regular sensors make the dual sensor periscope version much better.
Though an hybrid of the two is possible.
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- O S
- r3a
- 28 Dec 2020
O S, 28 Dec 2020Snapdragon 888 has triple ISP, this provides the opportunit... more#edited
Snapdragon 888 has triple ISP, this provides the opportunity to have three periscope zoom cameras, thereby mitigating the two drawbacks of the ASUS Zenfone zoom i.e a single periscope zoom and dim aperture.
How about a rear camera system with:
Sony IMX689 Zeiss Vario-Tessar T✻ 1:1.4 14–28 mm (2X zoom)
Sony IMX689 Zeiss Vario-Tessar T✻ 1:1.4 28–70 mm (2.5X zoom)
Sony IMX689 Zeiss Vario-Tessar T✻ 1:1.4 70–210 mm (3X zoom)
Selfie camera with:
Sony IMX689 Zeiss Vario-Tessar T✻ 1:1.4 18–27 mm (1.5X zoom)