Huawei Mate 40 announcement event officially scheduled for October 22

10 October 2020
The reveal teaser has led speculations about advancements in telephoto tech.

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  • AnonD-909757
  • pZQ
  • 12 Oct 2020

JDK, 12 Oct 2020It's real time 3d scanning technology for AR in the future.LiDAR is not necessarily real time, there are many exemples of LiDAR scanning slowly.
Those type of pro laser scanners are the professional most well known LiDAR and probably the oldest and are certainly not scanning in real time :
1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pocn9xCr0Zw
2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNNoOohPCSQ

LiDAR refer to every depth sensing technology using light to gather depth data, and its applications are way more varied than AR/XR, one of the common exemple on Smartphones is fake Bokeh effect for phones not having dedicated Portrait camera where rather than using only AI for detecting the subject and blurring the background, you rely partially on informations from depth sensor(s).
LiDAR in general have tons of applications and there are many different instruments that can be called LiDAR :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zREAEdXzOcw
ToF is also a LiDAR and there are two approach, either measuring the time a pulse of light make to comeback to the sensor, or continuously modulating the light frequency and measuring the phase shift :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viW5n1xuTq8
The SiLC startup who specialize on LiDAR technology clearly state ToF and "modulated ToF" (the modulated or FMCW is often considered as a ToF when we don't want to go too deep into the details) are LiDAR, and I am pretty sure they know what they talk about.
There is also another form who don't rely on phase shift or time which is Structured Light :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSsnf5tqXnA
There are multiple patterns that can be projected, stripes, circles, points cloud, grid, etc :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsTVEi6bwiA
(I only link this video because otherwise some might accuse me of lying or not knowing what I talk about because it have been said that it only do stripes, while it was only said for the sake of simplification, and even each methods have a lot of different way of working, the dot projector of the iPhone work totally differently from the dots in this video).
Those are also LiDAR, the Media just didn't used the name LiDAR as a "cool factor" back then, and it is how the Face ID with the TrueDepth system of Apple work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4m6StzUcOw
And NO, the flashes have nothing to do with ToF, ToF flash way more rapidly than that, structured light typically require a bit of processing time while ToF can work through an electronic circuit, hence why those flashes are slower, but the result is a much higher precision as the difference between where each dots is compared to the known structure of the pattern, and small deviation of each dots caused by the parallax and the spread angle is way easier to measure than nanoseconds that light take for small distances, meaning structured light are much more precise but have for downside to take more time and computing power.

Funny part is that Structured Light (which is the other main way compared to ToF that LiDAR operate) is often non-real time :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJsXynyQCuc
So much for the "ToF being one time" and "LiDAR being continuous"...


Please, don't take your knowledge from "Morsel" who know nothing about all that, even though all I say is easily verifiable, I am not asking you to trust me, just check for yourself and make sure to understand how the terms LiDAR, ToF, Depth Sensor differs and are often wrongly used interchangeably by news articles and other non-pro and that it is an extremely varied field where many techniques and implementations exist and share the same name.

    • J
    • JDK
    • ybx
    • 12 Oct 2020

    Anonymous, 10 Oct 2020Uncle LongPost, can you explain whether LIDAR is gimmick or not? It's real time 3d scanning technology for AR in the future.

      • J
      • JDK
      • ybx
      • 12 Oct 2020

      iOS Never Again, 12 Oct 2020You are the one commenting nonsense in every thread. Are y... moreYour literally the laughing stock every time.

      Always intrudes on apple article's comments and repeats that same lame phrase.

      Thinks he can make IOS users switch using his lame apple-trashing comments.

      Your hate on apple gives absolutely no contribution to buyer's choices or what they decide.

      People like this need to stop.

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        • Adul Al Salami Kebab
        • nrX
        • 12 Oct 2020

        Wont take long after launch people figuring out how to install Google services LMAO, tough can we expect a SoC upgrade for the Lite model or Kirin 810 again? I hope they at the very least offer 820 this time... :I

          Hmmm... definitely would love to see the official spec of the Mate 40 models.

            AnonD-754814, 11 Oct 2020LiDAR = Real time 3D scan by calculating distance. ToF : ... moreYou are the one commenting nonsense in every thread.
            Are you enjoying being a laughing stock?

              Nick Tagataka, 11 Oct 2020Right, your user name checks out.OMG, you're so smart... ;)

                Will they come with a jack, will get the colors/processing/raw right, will have some serious and competitive game streaming, it will be worth consideration.

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                  • AnonD-909757
                  • pZQ
                  • 11 Oct 2020

                  Anonymous, 11 Oct 2020There are two things wrong with claiming Apple's or Go... moreLiDAR does NOT use exclusively Lasers, it is only the most common use, it is like saying "computer only use electricity", which for "electronic" is right, but there are computer using mechanic, even some using water to work.

                  Wikipedia itself say LiDAR = "Laser imaging, Detection, And Ranging" AND "Light Detection and Ranging"
                  Here is a proof of that :
                  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6386823/

                  And 3D Map is actually done by measuring distance, unlike ToF who measure directly the time it take for light, Structured Light use computation for measuring deformation from patterns :
                  https://www.eyerys.com/articles/how-apples-lidar-sensor-differs-one-its-truedepth-face-id
                  There are differences between the Face ID Structured Light LiDAR and the "LiDAR" the latest Apple iPad have, but it is still the same, after all, a Smart Mini and a Tesla Model S have many differences but they are both cars.
                  https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208108


                  The thing is, there are MANY implementation that can be called LiDAR :
                  https://www.eetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/media-1304429-automotivelidarplayers-yole.jpg
                  https://www.knowmade.com/wp-content/uploads/edd/2018/05/Main-IP-players-involved-in-promising-LIDAR-technologies.jpg

                  LiDAR isn't just a single thing nor a precise tech, the name refer to many things.

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                    • AnonD-909757
                    • pZQ
                    • 11 Oct 2020

                    AnonD-754814, 11 Oct 2020LiDAR = Real time 3D scan by calculating distance. ToF : ... moreGreat explanation, except that it is totally wrong.
                    You have countless exemples of ToF measuring in real time, the latest Kinect for example use ToF and it is quite a no brainer based on what it does that it is in real time.
                    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/kinect-dk/depth-camera

                    You can also find many times the term "ToF LiDAR" used by professional and technical documentations, those aren't two different things.
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-of-flight_camera
                    Quote "Direct TOF vision systems[20] known as 3D Flash LIDAR cameras".
                    https://www.epfl.ch/labs/aqua/research/lidar/tof-lidar/

                    LiDAR mean measuring distance using light, whatever methods you use.

                    ToF mean Time of Flight, which is a way to measure distance from the time it take something to bounce back, and it isn't limited to light, sound, mmWaves and whatever which have a constant velocity and travel in a straight path can be used for ToF, laser rangefinder which aren't measuring 3D are also ToF.
                    It can be a bunch of lasers/dots, a single laser dot or a wide beam from either a Laser or a simple LED :
                    https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/how-do-time-of-flight-sensors-work-pmdtechnologies-tof-3D-camera/ (including an animated image proving it work well in real time).
                    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/LiDAR-vs-Flash-LiDAR-technologies-Courtesy-wwwfosternavnet_fig3_261333968


                    The other common method compared to ToF is structured light where rather than measuring the time light take to bounce back, you measure how surfaces deform a pattern you project on it and the spread of this pattern to compute distance :
                    https://www.roboticstomorrow.com/article/2018/04/what-is-structured-light-imaging/11821
                    It is exactly how Face ID and dot projector implementation Facial Recognition work on phones such as all iPhone, Google Pixel 4/4XL, Oppo Find X, Mi 8 Explorer, Huawei Mate 20 Pro, Huawei Mate 30 Pro and Honor Magic 2 3D.
                    I can't confirm for other phones, and multiple others, such as the P40 Pro and based on the image the Mate 40 are using ToF method.

                    Difference between ToF and Structured Light :
                    https://techthelead.com/lg-g8-3d-sensor-time-of-flight-structured-light/

                    LiDAR = Vehicles.
                    ToF = Cars.
                    Structured Light = Motorcycles.
                    That's some kind of how the proper naming work, the issue is that the smartphone industry butchered all those names and used them interchangeably.

                    Google Pixel 4/4XL as all other I have listed use a dot projector projecting 30K points, typical of Structured Light :
                    https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/4-2.jpg
                    https://www.gsmarena.com/pixel_4_and_4_xl_go_official_with_90hz_oled_screens_and_new_telephoto_cameras-news-39637.php
                    Quote "Speaking of, the Pixel 4 phones have an 8MP selfie camera. What makes it special is the 3D depth sensor (structured light) that is used for secure face unlock"
                    https://biometrics.mainguet.org/appli/appli_smartphones_face3D.htm

                    By the way, if anything, ToF is often used in real time (except in laser scanners with rotating head which perform scans) while Structured Light require a bit of computation, ToF is less ressources intensive and can be put into smaller spaces as you don't need a big dot projectors, but Structured Light is more precise.

                    Again, it isn't about understanding, it is about sources, proofs, facts, which I only quote and perfectly understand, have you even once checked the many links I send you ?

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                      • AnonD-754814
                      • 6p}
                      • 11 Oct 2020

                      AnonD-909757, 11 Oct 2020Or you just can't understand what is a LiDAR : LiDAR ... moreLiDAR = Real time 3D scan by calculating distance.
                      ToF : One time 3D scan by by calculating distance.
                      Good Facial scans are combination of ToF/Triangular 3D and regular image sensor.
                      The Google Pixel 4 isn't probably using ToF to scan the face.
                      It's using "Triangulation 3D depth mapping"

                      You just don't understand these. This is why you keep commenting nonsense in every thread.

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                        • Boggy-Stefy
                        • p%B
                        • 11 Oct 2020

                        Anonymous, 11 Oct 2020Apple is still stuck at 60hz, no one else has a vibrating s... moreWhat's wrong with 60Hz? I have 90Hz display on my phone now, but I can't see the difference from 60Hz. Maybe just in the first 2 weeks I saw it.
                        I think Sony still has headphone jack on their flagships. Also LG if I am not mistaken. Of course, they aren't your typical Samsung or Xiaomi, all over the place, 1000 models/year phones.
                        True, Huawei phones are good only if you are a camera geek. But then again, buy a dedicated camera if this is the case. Also, with all the new OS coming out, it is a gamble in the first year to buy a Huawei phone. Especially if it is 900-1200EUR.

                          • D
                          • Dometalican
                          • 7BB
                          • 11 Oct 2020

                          Anonymous, 11 Oct 2020Apple is still stuck at 60hz, no one else has a vibrating s... moreNever gave Apple a pass. I'm just throwing out what would make the price worthwhile.

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                            • Anonymous
                            • PZa
                            • 11 Oct 2020

                            AnonD-909757, 11 Oct 2020Or you just can't understand what is a LiDAR : LiDAR ... moreThere are two things wrong with claiming Apple's or Google's implementation is lidar. One is that lidar strictly uses lasers and not ifrared red. The second is lidar is used for measuring distances. Although there is some measurement of distance to build a 3D image of one's face but that's not the intended use of lidar, which is to create a 3D map of one's surroundings.

                            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidar

                              VectorR, 10 Oct 2020Maybe a little bit over $1000 in the beginning. But after c... moreI have the Mate 20 Pro, I have been waiting for the Mate 30 Pro drop to a reasonable price.
                              Huawei need to realise that buyers need to be compensated for the lack of GMS. They can't charge like they did before. They also need to enable bootloader unlock too.

                                • D
                                • AnonD-909757
                                • pZQ
                                • 11 Oct 2020

                                AnonD-754814, 11 Oct 2020So, you've now come up with a new stupid theory that G... moreOr you just can't understand what is a LiDAR :
                                LiDAR = Using light to gather depth data.
                                Apple Face ID & Pixel 4/4 XL (among others) facial recognition = Projecting a pattern of dots of infrared LIGHT and using an IR camera to DETECT then computer DISTANCE.

                                LiDAR = Light Detection And Ranging.
                                Face ID = Use Light to Detect And measure Range.
                                Face ID = LiDAR.
                                How hard is it to understand ?

                                It isn't because they commercially use different terms in certain ways to impress ignorants like you, that it change the real technical and real meaning of the terms.
                                It is like if you are saying that Whales were fish, or the Aurora V8 Hellfire OZ26 isn't a motorcycle because it have a car engine, you can doubt that the Dodge Tomahawk which have a 2 and 4 wheels hybrid thingy is a motorcycle, but clearly the Aurora is still a motorcycle, same here with the LiDAR, things don't care what you think, there are facts and I only quote them, which is why I am right, not because I say what I THINK is correct but because I quote facts, sometime even doing copy/paste.
                                Meanwhile, you never once explained anything about LiDAR as you lack knowledge about it for doing that, and you try to say that someone who explain how they work, backed with many documents, including patents, is wrong ? 🤣

                                I never pretended Face ID and its equivalent implementations aren't LiDAR, since the beginning I said that Structured Light ARE LiDAR (which is an easily verifiable fact), and Face ID use Structured Light.
                                Your problem isn't that you are wrong, your problem is that you are wrong AND you don't even check wherever you are right or not, or if what someone else say is true or false and yet you affirm strictly they are wrong and you are right, that isn't an healthy attitude.

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                                  • AnonD-754814
                                  • 6p}
                                  • 11 Oct 2020

                                  AnonD-909757, 11 Oct 2020Most peoples prefer a slim bezel over other solutions, and ... moreSo, you've now come up with a new stupid theory that Google pixel 4 and iPhone X have LiDAR ?

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                                    • AnonD-754814
                                    • 6p}
                                    • 11 Oct 2020

                                    Nick Tagataka, 11 Oct 2020108MP is highly unlikely or at least they will use a custom... moreWe have already discussed on this topic and we both agreed on that 108MP sensor is highly unlikely unless it's a marketing strategy.

                                    What do you mean by different CFA layout ?
                                    I think the RGB CFA layout are already there for both quad bayer and Nona bayer. What different type of layout it can be ?

                                      • D
                                      • AnonD-909757
                                      • pZQ
                                      • 11 Oct 2020

                                      Nick Tagataka, 11 Oct 2020While I agree that the pill design is ugly, they need somet... moreMost peoples prefer a slim bezel over other solutions, and most would prefer a pop up if there wasn't false myths about it that scared peoples away, when it appeared before news articles went stupid with fearmongering about it it was really popular and most were quite fan of it.
                                      A pop up is the best option as it allow fulldisplay and privacy while being able to host multiple sensors, including Structured Light LiDAR (like Google Pixel 4 or iPhones X/11) which is way more accurate for face recognition than ToF.

                                      In fact, the best solution is to have no dedicated front sensor and use the main camera through a retractable mirror or using a inner rotating reflector to pass light through a pop up feeding the main sensors.

                                      The notch allowed for Structured Light LiDAR who require both a sensor and a projector who was probably much more accurate than their current ToF LiDAR.
                                      And trust me, you want to avoid underdisplay camera, those are the worse.

                                        • .
                                        • .alpha
                                        • q2$
                                        • 11 Oct 2020

                                        Please make a Mate 40X. Totally waiting for a updated Mate 20X

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